Scottish Independence

[KennyPowers]

 

 

 

Is anyone else a little surprised that a higher % isn't required for independence?

If it is 50-50 as it very well might be then it seems sensible to have a re-vote rather than let one side win by a few hundred votes. 

 

I understand the concept of a referendum but if say 55% was required for independence that would seem to make sense for such a huge change.

 

 

Up there with letting 16 year old vote in the WTF was Cameron thinking when he agreed to it 

 

 

I agree it was a spectacularly risky move to allow 16's and 17's to vote on this most important issue as a first experiment in extending democracy. But as a principle, if you can be married and wearing a military uniform and paying taxes, you should be able to vote.

 

 

I watched some of the BBC three debate with Scottish young people and was truly impressed with the intelligence of the debate and their level of engagement. However, these people were obviously cherry-picked. 

 

I saw some late night BBC report that was roaming the streets asking young people for their views and the general consensus was they would vote yes because there would be a big party afterwards.

[chrisp65]

 

 

On the border crossing, in Ireland it is an EU country to an EU country.

Scotland would potentially be a non-EU state into the EU. So I can't see how in those circumstances, one wouldn't be required.

Can you genuinely see the UK government investing in the infrastructure to build booths on all motorways, A roads and B roads plus monitoring the countryside, building train stops and adding coast guard to the local harbours to stop people popping up or down to see their relatives?

No, there'll be 17 additional customs officers allocated to stop every 20th consignment of dodgy fags or Irn Bru plus regular infomercial articles on the One Show about how we monitor the border.

Isn't the problem that Scotland would have an open immigration policy ( or so the rumours say ) and thus anyone could just walk into Scotland and then walk into England (illegally ) if there was no border ?

 

 

Where did you get this rumour from? But yes, I think Scotland does rely on immigration (a bit like the rest of the UK) so I could see their system being relatively lax.

 

But even if it is suddenly easier to sail a raft from Libya to Aberdeen, do you really think this will cause the Uk govt to build a 5.4 metre high wall across fields and check points on every road and rail link? I genuinely can't see that being the response. More likely Westminster will chuckle as they get the Daily Mail to persuade us we need i.d. cards to stop illegals getting our stuff.

[chrisp65]

 

 

 

 

Is anyone else a little surprised that a higher % isn't required for independence?

If it is 50-50 as it very well might be then it seems sensible to have a re-vote rather than let one side win by a few hundred votes. 

 

I understand the concept of a referendum but if say 55% was required for independence that would seem to make sense for such a huge change.

 

 

Up there with letting 16 year old vote in the WTF was Cameron thinking when he agreed to it 

 

 

I agree it was a spectacularly risky move to allow 16's and 17's to vote on this most important issue as a first experiment in extending democracy. But as a principle, if you can be married and wearing a military uniform and paying taxes, you should be able to vote.

 

 

I watched some of the BBC three debate with Scottish young people and was truly impressed with the intelligence of the debate and their level of engagement. However, these people were obviously cherry-picked. 

 

I saw some late night BBC report that was roaming the streets asking young people for their views and the general consensus was they would vote yes because there would be a big party afterwards.

 

 

I think you'd get idiot answers from idiots roaming the streets faced with a TV camera regardless of age.

 

Fairly confident I could go into any town centre and get a late night idiot of any age you choose to say anything you choose.

 

If we are barring 17 year olds because a proportion of them are a bit thick or mischievous then we need to come up with another criteria to vet them out once they are 19 or 57 too.

[snowychap]

Interesting that Shetland had a vote some time ago on being in the UK and it was a resounding YES.

Shetland had a referendum on independence?

When was that?

Or is it that polls suggest that the majority in the Shetlands are not in favour of Scottish independence?

...then I read that they could vote to go independent from an independent Scotland.

As they're legally part of Scotland then they'd have to go through some sort of referendum to become independent from Scotland (how long did it take for the Scots to get that vote? It would be unlikely to happen in the near future, would it?)

Also, if they were to gain independence, why would it follow suit that they'd want to be part of the UK?

All in all, sounds like a bit of guff chucked in for mischief. Standard fayre for this referendum (and the kind of stuff we ought to expect for any UK EU referendum thing).

[tonyh29]

On the border crossing, in Ireland it is an EU country to an EU country.

Scotland would potentially be a non-EU state into the EU. So I can't see how in those circumstances, one wouldn't be required.

Can you genuinely see the UK government investing in the infrastructure to build booths on all motorways, A roads and B roads plus monitoring the countryside, building train stops and adding coast guard to the local harbours to stop people popping up or down to see their relatives?

No, there'll be 17 additional customs officers allocated to stop every 20th consignment of dodgy fags or Irn Bru plus regular infomercial articles on the One Show about how we monitor the border.

Isn't the problem that Scotland would have an open immigration policy ( or so the rumours say ) and thus anyone could just walk into Scotland and then walk into England (illegally ) if there was no border ?

Where did you get this rumour from? But yes, I think Scotland does rely on immigration (a bit like the rest of the UK) so I could see their system being relatively lax.

But even if it is suddenly easier to sail a raft from Libya to Aberdeen, do you really think this will cause the Uk govt to build a 5.4 metre high wall across fields and check points on every road and rail link? I genuinely can't see that being the response. More likely Westminster will chuckle as they get the Daily Mail to persuade us we need i.d. cards to stop illegals getting our stuff.

I thought it was an SNP policy but maybe I misheard it ?

immigration appears to be a big deal now with the big 3 have seen there are votes in it so don't rule out a border crossing if they think there will be votes in it

[tonyh29]

So let's say the vote is 51 % to 49% either way.... What happens to the side that lost .... It seems pretty passionate out there , will the yes people just say oh well and go home or could there be trouble on the streets ?

[chrisp65]

The Scottish Government’s White Paper ‘Scotland’s Future’ lays out our approach.

We plan a controlled points-based system to support the migration of skilled workers for the benefit of Scotland’s economy. An independent Scotland will have an inclusive approach to citizenship and a humane approach to asylum seekers and refugees.

.....from the SNP website (but doesn't make it true!)

[snowychap]

So let's say the vote is 51 % to 49% either way.... What happens to the side that lost .... It seems pretty passionate out there , will the yes people just say oh well and go home or could there be trouble on the streets ?

I imagine the side that won will get pissed in celebration and the side that lost will get pissed drowning their sorrows/wanting not to miss out on a party.

There may be the odd ruckus or fifty but I doubt it'll be any different to a normal friday/saturday north (or south) of the border. I'd be surprised if it weren't spun otherwise by the media, though.

[kidlewis]

 

Interesting that Shetland had a vote some time ago on being in the UK and it was a resounding YES.

Shetland had a referendum on independence?

When was that?

Or is it that polls suggest that the majority in the Shetlands are not in favour of Scottish independence?

...then I read that they could vote to go independent from an independent Scotland.

As they're legally part of Scotland then they'd have to go through some sort of referendum to become independent from Scotland (how long did it take for the Scots to get that vote? It would be unlikely to happen in the near future, would it?)

Also, if they were to gain independence, why would it follow suit that they'd want to be part of the UK?

All in all, sounds like a bit of guff chucked in for mischief. Standard fayre for this referendum (and the kind of stuff we ought to expect for any UK EU referendum thing).

 

It was on 5live when they spoke to a senior individual on the island. I think (after a quick look) it was reference to the 1979 referendum on devolution when the islands votes 73% NO for that one. The largest no percentage of any region in Scotland for that vote. 

Current polls suggest for this one that is at 60%. So they aren't big fans of it put it that way. 

 

I think the islanders are saying (or being implied they are saying) that if given the option they'd rather remain in the UK and could in the future go down that road if a YES vote comes tomorrow. 

 

After all they could always opt to go back to Norway!

[snowychap]

It was on 5live when they spoke to a senior individual on the island. I think (after a quick look) it was reference to the 1979 referendum on devolution when the islands votes 73% NO for that one. The largest no percentage of any region in Scotland for that vote.

A 1979 referendum on devolution is deemed to be relevant to how Shetland would react after a yes vote for scottish independence?

That's a little bizarre (that it's a vote 35 years ago on a different - though related - subject).

Current polls suggest for this one that is at 60%. So they aren't big fans of it put it that way. 

 

I think the islanders are saying (or being implied they are saying) that if given the option they'd rather remain in the UK and could in the future go down that road if a YES vote comes tomorrow.

Of course they are. The people who want a 'No' vote and want to undermine any oil-related economic argument are going to chuck that in to the mix but it's mischief making.

After all they could always opt to go back to Norway!

Norway, USA, China - wherever the bugger they want if they were in control of themselves.

I don't know what the Shetland islanders would want but it's slightly rum for people (even allowing for polls) to make suggestions on what would/could happen post a Yes vote on the basis of a vote that took place a generation ago on a (slightly or more)(sos don) different subject.

Edited September 17, 2014 by snowychap

[KennyPowers]

So let's say the vote is 51 % to 49% either way.... What happens to the side that lost .... It seems pretty passionate out there , will the yes people just say oh well and go home or could there be trouble on the streets ?

 

The result will be announced at about 7.30am as I understand it which diffuses the chance of riots. 

If the polls are right though I think the Nats will be fairly happy with a close defeat. They'll have a strong mandate for more devolution and they'll have done a pretty good job at swinging a lot of voters their way. They'll have 'won' in a way as they were so far behind in the polls a few months ago. Plus, they won't have to deal with the cluster-**** of governance issues independence would bring. 

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

I'll be amazed if any new powers for Scotland make it through the HoL.

[troon_villan]

I don't know many yes voters but the few that I have met all seem rather weird and couldn't give me any valid reasons for voting yes other than "**** it, why not"

 

My biggest fear, even on the day, is that the the people who would vote no just won't bother turning up.

[Brumerican]

I am a pisstaking knob for 99% of the time but you ginger muppets would be mental to leave us !

Don't go ... We can change ...we swear !!!

[LockStockVilla]

I don't know many yes voters but the few that I have met all seem rather weird and couldn't give me any valid reasons for voting yes other than "**** it, why not"

 

My biggest fear, even on the day, is that the the people who would vote no just won't bother turning up.

Most of the folk I know will be voting yes, although not entirely sure most of them know why either. However, my thought is that in terms of the "no" side, the best case scenario might be to be trailing in the polls going into the vote, because then those people who were not as bothered or might sway towards "no" might have more of an inclination to come out and vote as their votes might actually make the difference. 

[LondonLax]

On the border crossing, in Ireland it is an EU country to an EU country.

Scotland would potentially be a non-EU state into the EU. So I can't see how in those circumstances, one wouldn't be required.

 

Norway and Switzerland are non EU countries bordering the EU and thy don't have fences up along those borders. Sweden has a very open immigration policy, much more so than Finland or Denmark which it is connected to without a passport check.

 

I don't think there will ever be passport checks between Scotland and the UK, an arrangement will be made as neither side will want it.

[TrentVilla]

I don't know many yes voters but the few that I have met all seem rather weird and couldn't give me any valid reasons for voting yes other than "**** it, why not"

 

My biggest fear, even on the day, is that the the people who would vote no just won't bother turning up.

 

I think that was a real danger but I think the polls leading into the day showing the potential result to be close/in favour of yes will lead to a mobilising of the no voters.

[Nabby]

I don't know many yes voters but the few that I have met all seem rather weird and couldn't give me any valid reasons for voting yes other than "**** it, why not"

My biggest fear, even on the day, is that the the people who would vote no just won't bother turning up.

I think that was a real danger but I think the polls leading into the day showing the potential result to be close/in favour of yes will lead to a mobilising of the no voters.

Would like to hope so.The yes side do appear more vocal but from polls seems there is a silent majority of NO out there.

[S-Platt]

Surely if you don't vote at all you are in favour of the No vote? Anyone that really wants a change would get off their arse?

If they become independent how will the Rangers fans wave Union Jacks?

On a serious note they would be foolish to vote yes as a United Kingdom we subsidise loads of things for our Scottish brothers.

Royal Mail alone loses 200 million a year having a daily delivery to addresses all over Scotland which is covered by the English side of their service. Would ruin my eBay deliveries up there!!

I love Scotland great place to visit just hope they make the right choice.

[DanishVillan]

I don't know many yes voters but the few that I have met all seem rather weird and couldn't give me any valid reasons for voting yes other than "**** it, why not"

 

My biggest fear, even on the day, is that the the people who would vote no just won't bother turning up.

Tired of being outvoted 10-1 is a valid reason, though you probably wont agree.

I doubt the normal "couch-voters" will turn up, just this once, to vote "No, thanks" and then go back to having no influence.