The, he's finally GONE! Tell us your thoughts Thread

[Mantis]

Also the 5 games before Houllier was taken ill and G Mac took over we won 2 drew 1 and lost 2. The final 5 games under GMac we won 2 drew 2 and lost just once.

Which just goes to prove my point that our fortunes didn't really change. We had a decent run last season from the beginning of April onwards.

[Houlston]

Does it really matter what happened against Arsenal in that final? One game counts for very little when it comes to judging McLeish. The run they had towards that final was a joke, and they even needed penalties against Brentford or some shit team at home. All their games were at home too, which comes down to luck and fortune more than anything else. At least it was not McLeish's magical powers.

What you’re really saying is that the good thigns McLiesh has done in his career, i.e. somehow manage to win SHA a trophy, cannot be counted in an analysis of him.

Your argument is as ridiculous as saying you cannot count SHA’s relegation against him.

Ok,lets look at some FACTS here and keep opions aside.To be fair to the ginger headed one we will consider the last 5 seasons and the present one.

1-I dont remember finishing in the bottom half in the last 5 seasons

2-I dont remember losing so many games at home in the last 5 seasons

3-I dont remember scoring so few goals in the last 5 seasons

4-I dont remember getting so few points in the last 5 seasons

5-I dont remember playing such crap football in the last 5 seasons

6-i dont remember so many players playing out of position so much

7-The list goes on and on.

So, now compare the last 5 seasons to this one and ask yourself,

1- Do you like the direction we are going in ?

2- Have all those FACTS about the last 5 seasons changed this season ?

3- Who'se fault is it ? :?:

Rafa is that you?

The last five seasons except of course for last season which you do seem to be a little confused about.

We were forced into a change in manager due to Houllier's health and our fortunes improved in his absence.

The only reason we were in trouble is because GH was in hospital and G McA had to take over as caretaker manager

[markavfc40]

Also the 5 games before Houllier was taken ill and G Mac took over we won 2 drew 1 and lost 2. The final 5 games under GMac we won 2 drew 2 and lost just once.

Which just goes to prove my point that our fortunes didn't really change. We had a decent run last season from the beginning of April onwards.

It needs to be remembered our so called up turn in form under Houllier was made up of a fortunate 1-0 win against Newcastle in a dire game and a winner in the last couple of minutes against a West Ham side that would finish bottom of the league way a drift of the 19th place team.

Our results under GMac included wins against Arsenal and Liverpool although I would accept that both clubs played as though they were just going through the motions and couldn't wait to go on their hols. Its highly unlikely Houllier could have found it in himself to get a team to go out and win against his beloved Liverpool though.

Regardless of the above, which quite frankly is now irrelevant, the biggest tragedy is that having got rid of the **** up that was Houllier Lerner then went and appointed McLeish and surprise surprise he currently has just as bad a record as Houllier did all be it with worse players.

[Mantis]

Also the 5 games before Houllier was taken ill and G Mac took over we won 2 drew 1 and lost 2. The final 5 games under GMac we won 2 drew 2 and lost just once.

Which just goes to prove my point that our fortunes didn't really change. We had a decent run last season from the beginning of April onwards.

It needs to be remembered our so called up turn in form under Houllier was made up of a fortunate 1-0 win against Newcastle in a dire game and a winner in the last couple of minutes against a West Ham side that would finish bottom of the league way a drift of the 19th place team.

Our results under GMac included wins against Arsenal and Liverpool although I would accept that both clubs played as though they were just going through the motions and couldn't wait to go on their hols. Its highly unlikely Houllier could have found it in himself to get a team to go out and win against his beloved Liverpool though.

Regardless of the above, which quite frankly is now irrelevant, the biggest tragedy is that having got rid of the **** up that was Houllier Lerner then went and appointed McLeish and surprise surprise he currently has just as bad a record as Houllier did all be it with worse players.

So what? We still deserved to win both of those games, especially West Ham. I expect if Houllier had not had that heart scare he would've got a similar points return to GMac, although this is all just speculation.

Yes, it is indeed a huge tragedy that Randy appointed McLeish, who although has a worse squad also had a full pre-season and no injury crisis. McLeish is doing an absolutely terrible job and his time at SHA gives me little hope that he'll turn it around. Even if things do improve, we'll always be mind-numbingly boring.

[macandally]

Macandally, who would you appoint ?

I am not tied to any one individual. What I do understand is that at this time we have a manager who is very limited in his capability and that shows in the way the team plays.

I would like, a coach who has taken time to look at modern coaching techniques and understands that a team can be better than the sum of its parts. A manager who can identify, coach and motivate a group of players to react to the various phases of a football match without the need for blame and shouting.

I want the club to look past the end of its nose and implement a progressive policy of development, scouting and through club management that means that whether U10s or first team, everyone is technically and tactically coached properly with an eye on the mid to long term and ultimately, success.

That is what I would like. Martinez and Rogers have a number of those attributes, but I wondered be disappointed if it wasnt them as a long as it was someone of a similar ilk.

Before it sounds like I am off in some fantasy land, every FA course I do advocates a similar set up for grass roots football. We hold Clairefontaine and La Masia up as shining lights but any club can do it (Wigan try, Swansea have) if they develop and stick to the plan.

[PieFacE]

Macandally, who would you appoint ?

I am not tied to any one individual. What I do understand is that at this time we have a manager who is very limited in his capability and that shows in the way the team plays.

I would like, a coach who has taken time to look at modern coaching techniques and understands that a team can be better than the sum of its parts. A manager who can identify, coach and motivate a group of players to react to the various phases of a football match without the need for blame and shouting.

I want the club to look past the end of its nose and implement a progressive policy of development, scouting and through club management that means that whether U10s or first team, everyone is technically and tactically coached properly with an eye on the mid to long term and ultimately, success.

That is what I would like. Martinez and Rogers have a number of those attributes, but I wondered be disappointed if it wasnt them as a long as it was someone of a similar ilk.

Before it sounds like I am off in some fantasy land, every FA course I do advocates a similar set up for grass roots football. We hold Clairefontaine and La Masia up as shining lights but any club can do it (Wigan try, Swansea have) if they develop and stick to the plan.

Sounds like a reasonable approach and should be implemented in most clubs really.

Would take time but the end result would be very rewarding.

[Stu_The_Villan]

every FA course I do advocates a similar set up for grass roots football. We hold Clairefontaine and La Masia up as shining lights but any club can do it (Wigan try, Swansea have) if they develop and stick to the plan.

Like Houllier tried to?

[Richard]

Can't believe we are arguing over who is worse, Houllier or Mcleish.

[macandally]

every FA course I do advocates a similar set up for grass roots football. We hold Clairefontaine and La Masia up as shining lights but any club can do it (Wigan try, Swansea have) if they develop and stick to the plan.

Like Houllier tried to?

I could see what Houllier was attempting, but in fairness it was likely too much too soon and the players looked lost at times. Whether they were lost or just arseholes because of the new training regime is up for debate but either way it should have been evolution rather than revolution.

Interestingly, the kids shone under that type of coaching and in fairness, I think our academy is not doing a bad job. Its the first team where there are issues but the end of this season is the ideal time to remove those players who are not technically good enough and look to bring in those that are.

It will cost, but not the sums that some think. The likes of Sigurdsson at Hoffenheim (from memory) are available and wouldnt cost the earth. We still have Makoun who is a footballer and technically very good. Gardner is technically gifted, Bannen needs coaching to keep the ball moving short rather than looking for the defence splitter every time.

I dont think its a major job, but it is a job that needs doing.

[Mantis]

Can't believe we are arguing over who is worse, Houllier or Mcleish.

Well there's no contest there. McLeish wins by a mile. Worst Villa manager in the Premier League by a long distance.

[Houlston]

Interestingly, the kids shone under that type of coaching..

Did they? I remember a couple of decent games mainly the United game but eventually they were eased out the team again and even that team wasnt flush with kids. Not sure Houlliers approach allowed any of the kids to particularly shine. Albrighton went off the boil, Delph had the odd good game but nothing outstanding, Lichaq I think played well and was then publicly criticised.

[HolteExile]

Macandally, who would you appoint ?

I am not tied to any one individual. What I do understand is that at this time we have a manager who is very limited in his capability and that shows in the way the team plays.

I would like, a coach who has taken time to look at modern coaching techniques and understands that a team can be better than the sum of its parts. A manager who can identify, coach and motivate a group of players to react to the various phases of a football match without the need for blame and shouting.

I want the club to look past the end of its nose and implement a progressive policy of development, scouting and through club management that means that whether U10s or first team, everyone is technically and tactically coached properly with an eye on the mid to long term and ultimately, success.

That is what I would like. Martinez and Rogers have a number of those attributes, but I wondered be disappointed if it wasnt them as a long as it was someone of a similar ilk.

Before it sounds like I am off in some fantasy land, every FA course I do advocates a similar set up for grass roots football. We hold Clairefontaine and La Masia up as shining lights but any club can do it (Wigan try, Swansea have) if they develop and stick to the plan.

The tragedy with us is that we already have so much of that in place, from scouting kids as young as 8/9 (Daniel Sturridge was on our radar when he was as young as that) right through to the Academy. The only weak link in the chain is the most important part of the whole thing, the starting XI. And the constraints they play under with such a duffer of a manager.

The Academy has turned out some real gems in recent years, players who are technically competent and comfortable in possession. But what use are such players with McLeish's Alehouse tactics.

In defence of RL (and I haven't said that too often recently) I'm pretty certain he made integrating the Academy prospects into the first team as one of the conditions of the job on hiring McLeish. And McLeish -desperate to get away from the circus at St Andrews- would have told RL anything he wanted to hear "Yes Randy, I fully agree the kids are the way to go. We are on the same page, you and I. Now about my salary..."

Sullivan's quotes recently indicate that Big Eck was quite used to ceding ground on transfer related matters, hence the signings of Zarate and Benitez. According to Big Eck himself, Zigic wasn't his choice either (but then he would say that, wouldn't he). So it's no huge leap of faith to think he'd pander to the owners requests on other playing issues too.

The thing is, if he's doing it under duress players pick up on that. Playing people for the sake of it (even out of position), just hoping to stay in with the boss. Weak management, in other words. Doesn't sound like a recipe for fluidity and organisation - and the results (and performances this season) bear that out. A competent manager would actively want to make the most of players like Bannan, Albrighton, Gardner, Delph and Ireland. He'd relish the opportunity to work with that kind of talent and get the best out of them.

As it is, The two gems of the Academy -Albrighton and Bannan- have looked a shadow of the players we know they can be. Continue on this trajectory and don't be surprised if we lose both for nominal fees. Delph was sent out on loan and had made noises about wanting to make the move permanent and Ireland - despite upping his game and looking like our best player- seems to forfeit his place in the starting XI at the drop of the hat. If funds are tight as we're told ad nauseam we can't be so profligate with the talented players we do actually possess.

Whatever sweet nothings Big Eck might have whispered in RL's ear about his belief in attacking, attractive football and the importance of utilising youth, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Nothing in his previous indicates such things were ever important to him and -crucially as far as Villa are concerned- nothing in his team selections and set up this year indicates he has done an about turn this late into his career either.

[Mantis]

Excellent post HolteExile.

[macandally]

I agree, i have said elsewhere the structure is nearly there in some places. It just needs the first team sorting out and that takes a manager who is not the wrong side of 50, tactically archaic and with one eye on his pension plan.

The likes of Rogers, Martinez, Poyet, Adkins have shown that football can be played in this country, even in leagues that are labelled "end to end". I coach kids and the biggest thing I drill into them is you cannot score without the ball, doesnt matter how good a team you are. Keep the damn thing and use it sensibly. Villa are very poor at this. We seem to keep it going continually backwards until we end up with a punt up field.

Given and Collins have been around long enough to know better, especially when your only target is Bent.

[bickster]

It just needs the first team sorting out and that takes a manager who is not the wrong side of 50.....

Really, his age is a problem? You want an inexperienced manager, being as most managers rarely start until they are 35 / 40, you are saying we must have someone who lacks experience?

[macandally]

It just needs the first team sorting out and that takes a manager who is not the wrong side of 50.....

Really, his age is a problem? You want an inexperienced manager, being as most managers rarely start until they are 35 / 40, you are saying we must have someone who lacks experience?

Not necesserily but I would argue there is a greater degree of reliance on Assistant Managers/Coaches for modern practices when the manager is over 50. At 50, the manager has not played for probably over 15 years. Things change quickly, in fact, they changed in the two years between me doing my level 1 course and my level 2. Its continious development and some of the older coaches struggle to keep up with that and can be set in their ways.

A case in point is Kenny Dalglish who was out of the game for a few years, knew it, so brought in Steve Clark as a number 2. Clark is current on modern coaching practices and supposedly quite innovative. All on top of being an excellent coach and man manager.

Maybe I am being ageist, just a view. If you look at the teams playing the better football in the top two divisions, most are managed by younger managers (apart from Wenger and Harry of course!)

[bannedfromHandV]

Can't believe we are arguing over who is worse, Houllier or Mcleish.

I would add the word still into that sentence.

So far as I can tell we've been arguing over who's worse since we appointed ginge......

[bickster]

It just needs the first team sorting out and that takes a manager who is not the wrong side of 50.....

Really, his age is a problem? You want an inexperienced manager, being as most managers rarely start until they are 35 / 40, you are saying we must have someone who lacks experience?

Not necesserily but I would argue there is a greater degree of reliance on Assistant Managers/Coaches for modern practices when the manager is over 50. At 50, the manager has not played for probably over 15 years. Things change quickly, in fact, they changed in the two years between me doing my level 1 course and my level 2. Its continious development and some of the older coaches struggle to keep up with that and can be set in their ways.

A case in point is Kenny Dalglish who was out of the game for a few years, knew it, so brought in Steve Clark as a number 2. Clark is current on modern coaching practices and supposedly quite innovative. All on top of being an excellent coach and man manager.

Maybe I am being ageist, just a view. If you look at the teams playing the better football in the top two divisions, most are managed by younger managers (apart from Wenger and Harry of course!)

Wenger, Redknapp, Fergusson, Dalglish, Pardew thats 5 of the managers from the top 7 clubs so far this season, all over 50, one club doesn't have a manager at the minute and the other baby manager is Mancini whose 48

[macandally]

It just needs the first team sorting out and that takes a manager who is not the wrong side of 50.....

Really, his age is a problem? You want an inexperienced manager, being as most managers rarely start until they are 35 / 40, you are saying we must have someone who lacks experience?

Not necesserily but I would argue there is a greater degree of reliance on Assistant Managers/Coaches for modern practices when the manager is over 50. At 50, the manager has not played for probably over 15 years. Things change quickly, in fact, they changed in the two years between me doing my level 1 course and my level 2. Its continious development and some of the older coaches struggle to keep up with that and can be set in their ways.

A case in point is Kenny Dalglish who was out of the game for a few years, knew it, so brought in Steve Clark as a number 2. Clark is current on modern coaching practices and supposedly quite innovative. All on top of being an excellent coach and man manager.

Maybe I am being ageist, just a view. If you look at the teams playing the better football in the top two divisions, most are managed by younger managers (apart from Wenger and Harry of course!)

Wenger, Redknapp, Fergusson, Dalglish, Pardew thats 5 of the managers from the top 7 clubs so far this season, all over 50, one club doesn't have a manager at the minute and the other baby manager is Mancini whose 48

There are two outside that mould and I mentioned them previously:

Wenger has Pat Rice and a number of older coaches.

Harry who I named has Joe Jordan, again older.

Of the older manager and younger coach aspect, of the clubs you mentioned:

Fergie has René Meulensteen as 1st team coach. Age 47

Kenny has Steve Clark, aged 48.

Pardew has Steve Stone, aged 40

Like a team, management staff should be stronger than the sum of their parts and some work. I like Clark and think Houllier should have gone for him instead of McCallister.

[mikeyp102]

Holteexile good point in the main . However, I actually don't think McLeish has handled the integration of the kids that badly. The only one who can feel hard done by really is bannan who was playing well and then was dropped because of his driving exploits (fairly), but then hasn't really had a chance to reclaim his place.

Gardner has been brought through well, albrighton hasn't shown enough even when given a chance, herd has taken his opportunity and Clark was in the team before injury.

Ok the tactics may not suit the abilities best but I still feel that the youth have been handled fairly well