ryanvilla_1994 Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 What else does this guy have to do to be ranked as the best ever ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shillzz Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 What else does this guy have to do to be ranked as the best ever ? Worms. Can. Opened. FWIW, I agree, as much as I can do having not lived through the era of Maradonna or Pele. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Rev Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 What else does this guy have to do to be ranked as the best ever ? Win the world cup, and be the star of the tournament. Maradona basically won the world cup on his own for Argentina in 86. Pele has three winners medals and was the star of the all conquering 1970 team. Zidane was incredible in France 98, and he scored twice in the final. Ronaldo has two winners medals and was unplayable in 2002 when he couldnt stop scoring (interesting stat: England were the only team he didnt score against in that tournament) Messi needs to do something like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiegoD Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 Play well in a team that doesn't have the best midfield in the world behind him. Having Busquets, Xavi and Iniesta behind you really makes a big difference. That being said i think the guy is class but best in world isn't something easily attained. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Rev Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 Play well in a team that doesn't have the best midfield in the world behind him. Having Busquets, Xavi and Iniesta behind you really makes a big difference. That being said i think the guy is class but best in world isn't something easily attained. Dunno about that argument. A lot of the "great" players played in the best club sides of their day. You could argue Pele didnt because the Brazilian government didnt want him to leave Santos and Maradona didnt because the biggest clubs wouldnt stand for his off the field bullshit, but every other player who gets put in that bracket of immortal players played with 10 exceptional team mates at some point in their career. Messi needs to something spectacular at international level. He plays for one of the real powerhouse nations of world football, Argentina go into every world cup fancying their chances of winning it, and I think that is the gap in Messi's CV that is missing. Just look at Johan Cruyff. Undoubtedly the best player in the world in is heyday, he is the guy who made total football popular and you can still see his influence on Barcelona to this day. He never won the World Cup though, so he doesnt get mentioned in the same breath as those who have, but if you look at video footage of Cruyff or read about his exploits on the pitch then you will see just how great he was. I think the main problem with this debate is that football isnt maths. You simply cant have a "greatest ever" player because every candidate you put into that position will have some flaw in their CV that another player did have. Messi is undoubtedly a player you will tell your grandkids about, the fact that he is making Christiano Ronaldo's exploits at Real Madrid look ordinary (72 goals in 79 games, with 10 or so of those games being short substitute appearances because of injury) speaks volumes to just how brilliant Messi is, but to be the undisputed champion of football? Not at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Dogg Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 It's a mindset of people that the World Cup is the highest level when really the champions league is. The world cup just has the highest status in football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legov Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 It's a mindset of people that the World Cup is the highest level when really the champions league is. The world cup just has the highest status in football. Doesn't matter to me. The World Cup has a magical quality the annual competitions just don't achieve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVFC-Prideofbrum Posted April 14, 2011 Author Share Posted April 14, 2011 I still think whatever happens, baring some sort of terrible drop in form, he will go down in many eyes as one of the greatest ever for those who have witnessed him. Although I think for the football purists, not the greatest ever if he doesn't win the world cup. Sure I'd love him to win a world cup and go down as the greatest because that means he will be at top form these next 4/5 years, just a joy. Whatever happens though, I'm just thankful that every saturday and mid week, I get to tune into the TV and watch him play and just pretty much put a smile on my face in the way he plays the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted April 14, 2011 VT Supporter Share Posted April 14, 2011 I still place him behind Ronaldo in the 'greatest ever' stakes. Solely because Ronaldo went to clubs in a number of top leagues and was as good everywhere - his record of scoring is remarkably consistent whereever he is, always around 1 in 2, at club after club in league after league, and every league he dominated. Considering he was also regularly injured and out of shape from midway in his career on, that's astonishing. Did it in on the international stage too of course, as well if not better than his club form at times. In my mind the fact that Messi is doing this for a side that is the best in the world by an obscene degree and dominates at a canter holds back my praise. If he can go to another side and do similar, he'd have to be up there in my eyes. But thats unlikely to ever happen. A really good showing for Argentina in a World Cup would bump him up a bit, but the 'other league, other side' thing is what in my mind stays my mind from considering him seriously in the greatest ever stakes. Just. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lapal_fan Posted April 14, 2011 Share Posted April 14, 2011 Winning the world cup isnt that important in the greatest ever steaks. Eusebio is considered one of the greatest ever and he never won it. Messi has also won 2 European cups (3 maybe, was he in the squad for 05?) Messi, regardless of what he does with Argentina will go down as one of the worlds greats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted April 14, 2011 Share Posted April 14, 2011 Winning the world cup isnt that important in the greatest ever steaks. Eusebio is considered one of the greatest ever and he never won it. Messi has also won 2 European cups (3 maybe, was he in the squad for 05?) Liverpool won it in 05 so I doubt it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legov Posted April 14, 2011 Share Posted April 14, 2011 Winning the world cup isnt that important in the greatest ever steaks. Eusebio is considered one of the greatest ever and he never won it. Winning the WC isn't. Becoming the standout player in one is. (e.g. Eusebio, Cruyff etc) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Rev Posted April 14, 2011 Share Posted April 14, 2011 Winning the world cup isnt that important in the greatest ever steaks. Eusebio is considered one of the greatest ever and he never won it. I think you are somewhat missing the point. There are maybe a dozen or so players who are the "immortals" of the game, but when the debate for the best ever happens it seems to come down to the same two guys, Pele and Maradona. To be considered better than Pele or Maradona, Messi has to better what they did. Maradona basically won the World Cup on his own for Argentina in 1986. Argentina's tactics that year were to pass the ball to Maradona, wait a few seconds and then celebrate with him after he scored. Messi hasnt done that yet and people who think Maradona was better will always always be able to point to the glaring hole in Messi's CV until he does do it. Time is very much on Messi's side at the moment though, he will be 26/27 in the next world cup (his birthday is within the tournament) and 30/31 in 2018. He might even make the 2022 world cup depending on how his body holds out, so he has his chances, but I think to be up there with Pele or Maradona he needs to be the star player in a winning world cup team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shillzz Posted April 14, 2011 Share Posted April 14, 2011 Indeed, the truth is that the chance for him to out-do Pele has probably already passed him by, sadly. People who have witnessed his career will talk for years about he was the best player of all time (I know I will), but unless he wins the World Cup a la Maradonna, future generations simply wont remember him in years to come. Platini, great player, but what did he do? I dont know, as I wasnt about at the time. It would be the same with Messi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkyvilla Posted April 14, 2011 Share Posted April 14, 2011 One thing in Maradona's favour in the world cup(s) is that he didn't have Maradona as his manager. Whilst he was entertaining on the touchline last year, his defensive selections were bizarre to say the least. That along with playing Messi mainly in midfield, cost the Argies quite badly. It'll be interesting to see how they do in the Copa America and the next World Cup in Brazil. Messi is the best I've ever seen but I'm only 25. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lapal_fan Posted April 14, 2011 Share Posted April 14, 2011 I'm not going to argue and say that Maradona isn't one of the greatest in the world (I'm firmly in the 'love him' camp) But to say he won a world cup on his own is a bit naive I think. In the group stage; They played Italy and drew 1-1, Italy were a good team at the time. But Argentina, dispite what people say were solid at the back. Diego scored. Then they beat South Korea 3-1, not a result that would have suprised anyone because at the time Korea were about 59th in the world. Diego did not score. They then played Bulgaria and won 2-0, again a pretty standard result. First round knockout stage; They scraped a 1-0 win against uruguay, it was a poor match and Diego did not score. Uruguay were also a pretty average team. last 16; The famous 2-1 win over England. He cheated for their 1st, and scored a once in a lifetime goal for their 2nd. This was his best game in the entire tournament. His 'finest moment'. I also think (IMO) that the 86 England team wasn't that good (shock horror). Italia 90 team were basically the best team we've had and these guys where 4 years too young or shit..Paul Reid...Diego scored twice. Then they played **** Belgium in the semi final..BELGIUM, the Belgium who got lucky against Spain the earlier round. Spain should have been out of sight but fannied around and lost on penalties. A pretty ordinary team to get through to the final of a World Cup..Diego scored twice Then they beat West Germany 3-2 in a decent final. Diego didnt score. So when I look at that, it doesnt scream, Ronaldo - 98 (even though he fluffed the final), 02 or Zidane - 98 He scored 5 goals, 2 against Belgium, 2 against England (1 of which was cheating) and 1 against Italy. I think Messi is already as good as Diego ever was, he scored the winner in the champs league final Vs Utd and he's scored 117 goals in 172 games for Barca and he's only 23! Lets wait until the next world cup when Messi is a similar age to Diego was in 86 before we say Messi has to fufill this 'win the world cup to become a legend' thing thats going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted April 14, 2011 Share Posted April 14, 2011 What else does this guy have to do to be ranked as the best ever ? Win the world cup, and be the star of the tournament. Maradona basically won the world cup on his own for Argentina in 86. Pele has three winners medals and was the star of the all conquering 1970 team. Zidane was incredible in France 98, and he scored twice in the final. Ronaldo has two winners medals and was unplayable in 2002 when he couldnt stop scoring (interesting stat: England were the only team he didnt score against in that tournament) Messi needs to do something like that. just be half decent in a world cup would be a start Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVFC-Prideofbrum Posted April 14, 2011 Author Share Posted April 14, 2011 What else does this guy have to do to be ranked as the best ever ? Win the world cup, and be the star of the tournament. Maradona basically won the world cup on his own for Argentina in 86. Pele has three winners medals and was the star of the all conquering 1970 team. Zidane was incredible in France 98, and he scored twice in the final. Ronaldo has two winners medals and was unplayable in 2002 when he couldnt stop scoring (interesting stat: England were the only team he didnt score against in that tournament) Messi needs to do something like that. just be half decent in a world cup would be a start Eh? He had a pretty good individual world cup if you actually watched the games. He was pretty much the main man behind all Argentina's goals, was stupidly unlucky not to score on several occasions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theunderstudy Posted April 14, 2011 Share Posted April 14, 2011 Messi was poor in the World Cup IMO. Certainly by his standards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVFC-Prideofbrum Posted April 14, 2011 Author Share Posted April 14, 2011 http://www.viddler.com/explore/unloosener/videos/2/ Decent video of his world cup highlights, even though he didn't score, he still played well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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