villa89 Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 4 minutes ago, The_Steve said: Hopefully the FA steps in and blocks this given the lack of consultation At this stage the club should be pressing the reset button and aborting this new badge launch for 12 months. Keep the current setup, round crest and Lerner badge everywhere else and try again next season with a proper process. Proceeding with the clipart crest at this point would be insanity. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Steve Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 As the rules make clear "A club must also be able to evidence that a majority of its supporters are in favour of any proposed changes (such as via an independently-run poll of season ticket holders, the club’s Community Benefit Society, and supporters that have attended a certain number of home matches). In the event a club is found to be in breach of the rules, The FA is able to take appropriate action, such as ordering a club to revert back to a previous crest or home shirt colour combination." The FA will likely bin off Heck’s design given the lack of consultation and we are back with the round badge. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risso Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 16 minutes ago, est1874 said: Sounds to me like Heck's new shield will never see the light of day. According to that Bardell and Tanswell podcast, it's on the new kits already. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
est1874 Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 4 minutes ago, Risso said: According to that Bardell and Tanswell podcast, it's on the new kits already. How have they seen the new kits? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 6 minutes ago, The_Steve said: As the rules make clear "A club must also be able to evidence that a majority of its supporters are in favour of any proposed changes (such as via an independently-run poll of season ticket holders, the club’s Community Benefit Society, and supporters that have attended a certain number of home matches). @OutByEaster? has passed on the messages from the club that they have contacted the FA and they believe there has been sufficient consultation. While I don't doubt the accuracy of what OBE has relayed from the club, I very much doubt the club's version of events, because they can't use that previous survey as evidence of us being in favour of the changes. for starters, there was no question that indicated we wanted any change at all. If this level of consultation is deemed sufficient, the rules are worthless - but this will be the first test of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
It's Your Round Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 If they can somehow manage to get the new kits made and ready to sell by the start of next season, people will be so shocked they won’t care what badge is on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoony Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 26 minutes ago, est1874 said: Sounds to me like Heck's new shield will never see the light of day. Why do you think that out of interest? Because of the lack of consultation? I doubt the FA really have the teeth or desire to stop it. I’m sure Villa can successfully fudge that they abided by the consultation rules. This whole thing is a joke. What exactly does the club have to gain by pissing off a fan base and having a shit badge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
est1874 Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 4 minutes ago, Spoony said: Why do you think that out of interest? Because of the lack of consultation? I doubt the FA really have the teeth or desire to stop it. I’m sure Villa can successfully fudge that they abided by the consultation rules. This whole thing is a joke. What exactly does the club have to gain by pissing off a fan base and having a shit badge? Because of what you've said about pissing off a fan base and because of what the article says about the FA teaching out to the FAB via FCA. If the FAB relays their opposition with even half the gusto we've seen on here and heard on the pods, I don't see how the FA can ignore it. Their rules make clear that a majority of fans need to be in support of any new badge being proposed. The club has to demonstrate that, so they will either need to put it to a vote (knowing it will likely lose) or scrap it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HalfTimePost Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 Here's the full Athletic article that Jas linked to Quote Unbeknown to Unai Emery, press conferences have proven symbolic of Aston Villa’s clash in club crests. Emery often wears a club tracksuit displaying the circle-shaped logo, decided upon in November 2022 and implemented on kits before the 2023-24 campaign. Behind Emery and on advertising boards, though, is another crest, shield-shaped and introduced under then-owner Randy Lerner. It serves as an apt picture of the misalignment and growing internal unease towards the circle-shaped badge, which, according to staff, “does not represent Villa”. “If you look at the stadium, it is a mess in the way it’s represented, because you’ve got the Lerner crest and the round-shaped one,” says Nilesh Chauhan, diversity campaign manager for the Football Supporters’ Association (FSA) and a Villa fan who sits on the current Fan Advisory Board (FAB), representing Villians Together. “You can’t just scribble it out and start again, it doesn’t work that way.” The flux began in early 2022 when Villa announced its intentions to transition away from the shield-type logo and be reflective of a new era and change of direction. Crucially, any broader changes to the badge — the first modification of any type since 2016 — would involve supporters. Despite some faults in the eventual design in hindsight, the project was led by former chief executive Christian Purslow who, according to fans in the relevant supporter advisory channels, went through the requisite consultation process. It was also widely praised by the FSA. Overall, 21,500 supporters voted to influence the design, with 77 per cent opting for a circle-shaped crest. Only eight per cent voted to retain the Lerner shield. New newsletter – Aston Villa's crest is more than just a logo, and it is imperative that the club remembers that. Fans are allowed to dislike, bitch and moan about the silly little things. Why? Because it shows they give a shit.#AVFChttps://t.co/Ggd3KZkDTj — James Rushton (@Jamorushton) January 4, 2024 Less than a year later, however, internal grumblings remained. Media outlets were encouraged not to adopt the new badge and instead stick with the former, suggesting another change would follow. Villa were also reticent to use it digitally and for marketing purposes. FAB members were told the badge was “too close to Chelsea” and did not offer distinguishable qualities. Temporary measures were put in place before the creation of another new crest, with the Lerner shield being adopted when possible. The circle-shaped badge was felt to have little relevance to Villa’s tradition and, as a consequence, a shield shape should be reinstalled. This appeared to go against the overwhelming preference of supporters, with over three-quarters of the vote wanting a circular crest. On September 16 of last year, three hours before Villa’s home fixture against Crystal Palace, the first FAB meeting was held in a suite in The Holte End with the incoming president of football operations, Chris Heck, and chief operating officer, Ben Hatton, following the departure of Purslow in the summer. It was outlined during the meeting, which lasted around 50 minutes and described as an “inadequate length of time to discuss a range of issues” by one person involved, that Villa would change crest once more. Heck had held a virtual call with the FAB before September’s first in-person discussion. “When Chris Heck initially told us that he was looking to change the crest, he said he would consult the fans,” says Chauhan. Heck started his role in May, having moved from the United States where he most recently worked in Basketball at the Philidelphia 76ers and was previously involved in marketing partnerships within the NBA. Between 2011-2013, he spent two years at New York Red Bulls, operating in a similar capacity to his present job at Villa. Hatton, meanwhile, served as a commercial director at Manchester United between 1997 and 2007 before, in between multiple other roles, returning to club football at Blackpool 12 years later. In October, Villa confirmed the decision publicly, conceding the crest did not bring about the desired benefits. This, in other words, included shirt sales, design and the overall look of Villa merchandise. In mitigation, shirt sales in particular would have been impacted by a new controversial gambling partner sponsoring the front of the kit and the generally poor quality of the manufacturer, Castore. A statement read: “As communicated at the recent meeting of its Fan Advisory Board, Aston Villa is planning to re-engage with supporters to explore options for the selection of a permanent new-look crest before the club’s 150th anniversary next year. “The crest, which tributes the club’s 1982 European Cup winners, will now be discarded at the end of the current season. Villa will continue discussions with supporters over the crest once the new consultation session gets underway shortly.” On December 20, three months after the first meeting, Heck and Hatton convened again with the advisory board. Villa had informed those who would be attending about two chief agendas they hoped to discuss — disability access around Villa Park and, secondly, an update on the crest. Towards the end of the meeting, supporters were shown a video montage which unveiled a new badge. Those inside the room spoke of their initial shock towards the announcement given they had not been consulted over the design. “Heck presented the new crest to us with a video accompanying it,” said one supporter, who asked to speak on the condition of anonymity. “We never got asked if we liked it or not. But no one said anything because there was no time left in the meeting to discuss it. I think it was also because we were told ‘this the crest’ — no one asked us for our opinion.” The crest displayed within the montage is believed to be the one that surfaced online last week, as a result of an eagle-eyed supporter noticing that Villa had registered it as a trademark with the UK government before the meeting with the FAB group. Significantly, however, this was at odds with what Heck said in his first public interview since joining Villa, published on the club website on December 19, the day before the meeting. “We are working very closely with supporter groups and individuals that are fans,” said Heck. “The crest is for the fan. It is worn by the players and it is for the fan. We are passing it over to them to decide what is best. It is going to be great for the club and for the next 150 years. “The hope is that the crest will be shown to all fans when it is complete this winter. I expect that to be in a few weeks. I am very excited to see how that goes. I will say that the crest will be on the kit come summertime.” Heck’s first interview coincided with the unveiling of another separate logo celebrating Villa’s 150th anniversary, announced on his own Twitter account and simply captioned “#OnBrand” — a slogan he previously used at the Philidelphia 76ers. Heck had made a conscious effort to only speak publicly six months into his role, hoping to afford himself ample time to assess several departments, surveying any relevant concerns and areas for improvement. This contributed to the decision to discontinue plans to redevelop Villa Park. Heck’s interview was on the club website but not promoted across Villa’s social media channels. My Old Man Said is a Villa supporter group that sits on the fan advisory board. Last week, an article was published on its website, expressing concerns over the lack of fan consultation and claiming Villa had breached Football Association rules, which state that if a club wishes to make changes to its crest, there must be “a thorough and extensive consultation process with supporters”. The rule was introduced following the fan-led review of football governance in 2021. “Bar a very general survey, which was issued with the preface of returning to a shield design (that seems to have confirmed nothing new beyond the previous survey), there has been zero supporter consultation or insight,” said the article. “Any request during previous meetings to have any involvement in the process — as per FA rules — was rejected by Ben Hatton. There has been ZERO evidence of ‘working very closely with supporter groups’, or passing it over to them to decide what is best. Literally, none of what he has said has happened. “No supporter is asking for any direct influence or say in the crest process. It’s simply a matter of not wanting to listen to disrespectful empty rhetoric and for the FA rules to be followed properly at face value.” The Athletic understands the FA intends to speak to Villa’s fan advisory board through the FSA and will be asked to share concerns. This was outlined last Thursday (January 4). Any changes Villa end up making to the crest will be dependent on compliance with the FA’s ‘Heritage Asset rules’. Talks between the FA and the club will continue to ensure appropriate fan consultation. An informal meeting between Villa officials, including Hatton, and the fan advisory board is scheduled to take place on January 31. Discussions regarding off-the-field discord will continue. “The communication has just been poor,” said one FAB member. “It is just another sign of fans being overlooked on key issues.” 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Steve Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 Nothing in that Atheltic article convinces me that Heck has followed the rules on this - I really hope the FA actually enforces the rules. This is not fan engagement or consultation. Quite the opposite. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allani Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 1 hour ago, romavillan said: Nah the round badge is Villa, the early 80s away kits with it are some of the most beautiful shirts in the history of world football I'm pretty sure that in our 150 year history, we only had a round badge for 17 years. So I don't get this idea that somehow a round badge is Villa's thing. I mean I get the appeal to people of my age because it resonates with a specific time in our Villa lives in our formative years and when we were pretty successful. I'm not necessarily against a round badge and I'm not saying that our new badge should reflect a shape that we've used in the past. However, I do think it is difficult (given the current popularity of round badges) to make a roundel really stand out - especially when it is clear that the image / design is more important than colours (as witnessed by the number of examples of the current round badge that are monochrome or don't feature claret, blue or yellow). I don't like the current badge as it doesn't look unique - especially in monochrome format. I'd prefer something where the shape was immediately recognisable as being different to other clubs and unique. However, I don't like the Lerner version, the current round version or the new proposed / leaked version. It really feels like we've missed a trick here. I think it is probably because each time we've tried to design something that fans will like and have been held hostage as it were by some of the initial questions during the fan consultation. Consequently, I think the design framework has been too constrained - especially when you compare them to some of the ideas that fans have come up with. I think we've missed a trick in terms of just coming up with 10 different concepts and then working out what people like / don't like about them. It would have meant that we weren't constrained by this whole round v shield debacle and actually it would have given fans and designers a chance to change their views as people saw what might be possible and what elements to focus on. Instead I think we were presented with a choice between a bland round badge and a poorly refined gaslamp as straight alternatives and then we've tried to revert to updating our not very good previous shield. Rather than picking the things that work (for example I do really like the colouring of our round badge) and trying to incorporate those - we seem to instead be making a habit of picking the worst elements and trying to use those (the colours of the Lerner badge were / are awful). I do hope that someone at the club has picked up on this and can manage to put egos to one side - so that we pause and try to re-engage. The lion and the symmetry of our name plus all the historic elements that we can reference to add to the "story" of our badge are really strong components. I think if the actual graphics of the badge are done properly then the question of the shape (for me at least) becomes largely irrelevant and should almost be the last element to be trialed rather than the first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa89 Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 27 minutes ago, The_Steve said: The FA will likely bin off Heck’s design given the lack of consultation and we are back with the round badge. Very little chance of that IMO. The rules were brought in after Cardiff's owner decided that Red (china's lucky colour) should be their new colour and changed the badge accordingly without letting anyone know. The resulting fan outcry (understandable given they are the bluebirds) led the FA to introduce these odd rules. I think the FA would only intervene if it was something similar, effectively this new shield is just and evolution of the Lerner one which is still mostly in use. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DakotaVilla Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 The ongoing delay in announcing the crest is telling. Clearly they are going through the pros and cons of the various options available. The longer the delay continues the more likely it is that Heck’s crest has been binned and in reality they don’t have any other option. It’s clear that the vast majority of fans don’t like it so whichever way you cut it any launch would be a failure (and hugely embarrassing) with another rebrand required as soon as heck moves onto another role somewhere else. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risso Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 27 minutes ago, est1874 said: How have they seen the new kits? I expect somebody's shown them. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Townsend Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 I think that article there is quite damning of a certain individual. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
est1874 Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 3 minutes ago, Risso said: I expect somebody's shown them. Why would they have shown them? And if so, they'll be mockups/graphic designs. Subject to change Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muller Yogurt Long Sleever Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 8 minutes ago, allani said: I'm pretty sure that in our 150 year history, we only had a round badge for 17 years. So I don't get this idea that somehow a round badge is Villa's thing. I mean I get the appeal to people of my age because it resonates with a specific time in our Villa lives in our formative years and when we were pretty successful. I'm not necessarily against a round badge and I'm not saying that our new badge should reflect a shape that we've used in the past. However, I do think it is difficult (given the current popularity of round badges) to make a roundel really stand out - especially when it is clear that the image / design is more important than colours (as witnessed by the number of examples of the current round badge that are monochrome or don't feature claret, blue or yellow). I don't like the current badge as it doesn't look unique - especially in monochrome format. I'd prefer something where the shape was immediately recognisable as being different to other clubs and unique. However, I don't like the Lerner version, the current round version or the new proposed / leaked version. It really feels like we've missed a trick here. I think it is probably because each time we've tried to design something that fans will like and have been held hostage as it were by some of the initial questions during the fan consultation. Consequently, I think the design framework has been too constrained - especially when you compare them to some of the ideas that fans have come up with. I think we've missed a trick in terms of just coming up with 10 different concepts and then working out what people like / don't like about them. It would have meant that we weren't constrained by this whole round v shield debacle and actually it would have given fans and designers a chance to change their views as people saw what might be possible and what elements to focus on. Instead I think we were presented with a choice between a bland round badge and a poorly refined gaslamp as straight alternatives and then we've tried to revert to updating our not very good previous shield. Rather than picking the things that work (for example I do really like the colouring of our round badge) and trying to incorporate those - we seem to instead be making a habit of picking the worst elements and trying to use those (the colours of the Lerner badge were / are awful). I do hope that someone at the club has picked up on this and can manage to put egos to one side - so that we pause and try to re-engage. The lion and the symmetry of our name plus all the historic elements that we can reference to add to the "story" of our badge are really strong components. I think if the actual graphics of the badge are done properly then the question of the shape (for me at least) becomes largely irrelevant and should almost be the last element to be trialed rather than the first. Spot on. Ridiculous to brief designers with 'these are the elements, arrange them nicely' (which they haven't); and I wholeheartedly agree we've missed a trick, in defining our whole identity in a more innovative and ownable way, whilst still celebrating heritage. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allani Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 1 minute ago, villa89 said: Very little chance of that IMO. The rules were brought in after Cardiff's owner decided that Red (china's lucky colour) should be their new colour and changed the badge accordingly without letting anyone know. The resulting fan outcry (understandable given they are the bluebirds) led the FA to introduce these odd rules. I think the FA would only intervene if it was something similar, effectively this new shield is just and evolution of the Lerner one which is still mostly in use. I agree. We don't want this becoming an issue where the FA get involved and we end up with a fight between the club and the fans. The hope is that the message that people don't like the proposed badge gets through to the people that matter in the club and that they have enough self-belief and self-confidence to stop and re-engage. I really don't think that it would take that long for the club / fan representatives to sit down and agree on a colour palette, the styling of the lion and the wording. The round / shield debate might be more difficult but I do think that if the reasoning behind the options was openly discussed with the pros / cons understood then actually the palette, lion and wording are probably more important to fans, whilst the shape might be more important to branding people. I think it feels like there is more divide here than there really is - because really at the end of the day none of the recent options - the Lerner badge, the two proposed options last year or the new leaked version - are any better than a 6/10. I can't believe that it wouldn't be possible to get an 8/10 (or better) design done - at least in a crude format - in 2 weeks that would meet something that fans like the look of but also provide an excellent framework for branding experts to be able to make extensive use of in different formats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted January 10 VT Supporter Share Posted January 10 2 minutes ago, est1874 said: Why would they have shown them? And if so, they'll be mockups/graphic designs. Subject to change The work will have begun on mass production of the new kits already. There will almost certainly be 'proof' examples already made, the designs will have been known about for a while before that even, particularly so since Adidas will have an established template for the coming season for multiple months now, they'll just have knocked out a few versions on claret and blue. It's not a shock that some people with media and club connections might have got a quick look at a phot of a proof, or so on. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CVByrne Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 1 hour ago, Stevo985 said: Nowt wrong with keeping the shield. Don't think anyone has a real issue with that even if their preference is round. The issue is the badge is completely shit Yeah it doesn't look great, should have been 2/3 options of Shield and feedback received 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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