Race for Champions League - 2023/2024

[HanoiVillan]

1 minute ago, viivvaa66 said:

I sort of agree, but our tactic under Emery do result in us taking an early lead in most matches. The question becomes, can our tactic be described by the end result, or is our tactic all the part that the manager can control, how we defend, how we play out from the back, how we attack and so on that leads to the end result. 

By its definition a tactic is a variable. Trying to win the game (which is achieved by scoring goals) is not a variable: all teams try to win the game. The tactics are the set up, the goals are the result of the tactics working. 

[colhint]

I know we have Europe to deal with so do most of the other teams. But our European adventure is much easier than the others.

[fightoffyour]

2 hours ago, HanoiVillan said:

Lads, we need a moratorium on describing *trying to take the lead in a football match* as a 'tactic'. Literally every team that has started a game ever has had this 'tactic'. 

How quickly some forget the McLeish years.

[Rodders]

1 hour ago, Follyfoot said:

recalling some of the dross I have watched over the years I strongly dispute this 

 

The Mcleish Seven Defender line up  

[villan95]

2 hours ago, fightoffyour said:

How quickly some forget the McLeish years.

Hey three 0-0s are almost as good as a win!

[Monkeypuzzle]

Not quite sure where to put this but I guess this thread is as good as any.

I've noticed that a lot of the "big 6" clubs have been selling or releasing a lot of their older better players this window, mostly to Saudi Arabia, but not all. They have been replacing them with promising youngsters who still have quite a way to go. In a few years I am sure most of these younger players will be world class but right now they are not. In fact they wouldn't even get into our team. This has resulted in the best teams in the league getting temporarily weaker whilst we are getting stronger. I can't see a better chance for us to blow the "big 6" apart than this and next season. We have much better depth (barring our current nine player injury list) than any of these teams! Look at these ins and outs for certain clubs.

 

Arsenal are the one exception here I think. Their ins have really strengthened them and there have been no major outs other than Xhaka, Kovacevic and Tierney, who have been replaced by better in my opinion.

 

Chelsea out: Havertz, Kovacic, Mount, Pulisic, Koulibaly, Mendy, Aubameyang, Azpilicueta, Kante, Lukaku, Arrizabalaga, Ziyech - 12 excellent players

Chelsea in: Disasi, Jackson, Nkunku, Sanchez, Caicedo, Ugochukwu, Lavia, Washington, Petrovic - 9 players, half of whom I've never heard of before this window.

Chelsea verdict: Weaker. So much quality has left. World class quality. The sort of players that make you a top team. Replaced by promising talents from Southampton and Brighton. Give them time they may be world class but there's surely no arguing for the here and now, which list of players are better?

 

Liverpool out: Henderson, Fabinho, Firmino, Keita, Milner, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Salah (maybe) - They have relied on some of these players for a long time.

Liverpool in: McAllister, Szoboslai, Endo - good players but it feels like right now they have replaced Champions League players with Europa League ones.

Liverpool verdict: Weaker, especially if Salah does leave. They now lack any depth in quality.

 

Man City out: Mahrez, Laporte, Gundogan, Cancelo - Amazing players that are hard to replace, especially with DeBruyne out too.

Man City in: Doku, Gvardiol, Kovacic, Nunes - All good players, but none are the quality of those they are replacing. Yet.

Man City verdict: Weaker. They have virtually no depth any more other than at centre back. A few injuries and they will really struggle. Nine injuries like we currently have? They won't make Europe next year.

 

Man Utd out: De Gea, Fred - actually they can probably cope without these guys no worries.

Man Utd in: Mount, Onana, Hojlund - I can't believe how much money they spent on Hojlund. He is nowhere near ready to lead their attack.

Man Utd verdict: No change. They are not really any weaker or stronger compared to last season. They need to stay in form though as their quality isn't good enough to get Champions League if they have to carry a few starters.

 

Tottenham out: Kane, Winks, Moura, Hojbjerg (rumoured), Lloris (rumoured), Reguilon (rumoured), Died (rumoured), Ndombele (rumoured) - lots of rumoured outs but the heart of this team has already been ripped out with Kane's departure.

Tottenham in: Maddison, Vicario, Solomon, Porro, Van de Ven, Johnson (rumoured) - Solomon was free and the rest cost 1.5 Harry Kanes! Not counting the £25.5 million they paid to keep Kulusevski.

Tottenham verdict: So much weaker! Teams will not fear them any more. Champions League is surely out of reach for them this year?

Edited August 29, 2023 by Monkeypuzzle

[HalfTimePost]

If this happens and no VVD we absolutely have to go and try and pummel them on the weekend and make up for the loss at Newcastle.

It will always be a tough game but on the off chance they're off their game there's a nice opportunity to try and derail them a bit this weekend.

Never a better time to win at Anfield if they do lose Salah and Van Dijk is out

 

Edited August 30, 2023 by HalfTimePost

[ender4]

18 hours ago, Monkeypuzzle said:

Not quite sure where to put this but I guess this thread is as good as any.

I've noticed that a lot of the "big 6" clubs have been selling or releasing a lot of their older better players this window, mostly to Saudi Arabia, but not all. They have been replacing them with promising youngsters who still have quite a way to go. In a few years I am sure most of these younger players will be world class but right now they are not. In fact they wouldn't even get into our team. This has resulted in the best teams in the league getting temporarily weaker whilst we are getting stronger. I can't see a better chance for us to blow the "big 6" apart than this and next season. We have much better depth (barring our current nine player injury list) than any of these teams! Look at these ins and outs for certain clubs.

 

Arsenal are the one exception here I think. Their ins have really strengthened them and there have been no major outs other than Xhaka, Kovacevic and Tierney, who have been replaced by better in my opinion.

 

Chelsea out: Havertz, Kovacic, Mount, Pulisic, Koulibaly, Mendy, Aubameyang, Azpilicueta, Kante, Lukaku, Arrizabalaga, Ziyech - 12 excellent players

Chelsea in: Disasi, Jackson, Nkunku, Sanchez, Caicedo, Ugochukwu, Lavia, Washington, Petrovic - 9 players, half of whom I've never heard of before this window.

Chelsea verdict: Weaker. So much quality has left. World class quality. The sort of players that make you a top team. Replaced by promising talents from Southampton and Brighton. Give them time they may be world class but there's surely no arguing for the here and now, which list of players are better?

 

Liverpool out: Henderson, Fabinho, Firmino, Keita, Milner, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Salah (maybe) - They have relied on some of these players for a long time.

Liverpool in: McAllister, Szoboslai, Endo - good players but it feels like right now they have replaced Champions League players with Europa League ones.

Liverpool verdict: Weaker, especially if Salah does leave. They now lack any depth in quality.

 

Man City out: Mahrez, Laporte, Gundogan, Cancelo - Amazing players that are hard to replace, especially with DeBruyne out too.

Man City in: Doku, Gvardiol, Kovacic, Nunes - All good players, but none are the quality of those they are replacing. Yet.

Man City verdict: Weaker. They have virtually no depth any more other than at centre back. A few injuries and they will really struggle. Nine injuries like we currently have? They won't make Europe next year.

 

Man Utd out: De Gea, Fred - actually they can probably cope without these guys no worries.

Man Utd in: Mount, Onana, Hojlund - I can't believe how much money they spent on Hojlund. He is nowhere near ready to lead their attack.

Man Utd verdict: No change. They are not really any weaker or stronger compared to last season. They need to stay in form though as their quality isn't good enough to get Champions League if they have to carry a few starters.

 

Tottenham out: Kane, Winks, Moura, Hojbjerg (rumoured), Lloris (rumoured), Reguilon (rumoured), Died (rumoured), Ndombele (rumoured) - lots of rumoured outs but the heart of this team has already been ripped out with Kane's departure.

Tottenham in: Maddison, Vicario, Solomon, Porro, Van de Ven, Johnson (rumoured) - Solomon was free and the rest cost 1.5 Harry Kanes! Not counting the £25.5 million they paid to keep Kulusevski.

Tottenham verdict: So much weaker! Teams will not fear them any more. Champions League is surely out of reach for them this year?

I agree with you on Arsenal, Man City, Liverpool and Chelsea.  

However Man Utd are surely a little stronger now? 

Spurs simply have a better manager which will make a massive difference. 

I guess we have to include Newcastle now who are also stronger?

 

So IMO  in summary:

Arsenal - Stronger

Spurs - Stronger because of manager

Man Utd - Stronger

Liverpool - weaker

Man City - weaker but still insanely strong

Newcastle - stronger

Chelsea - much weaker

Brighton - weaker

Villa - much stronger

[Monkeypuzzle]

26 minutes ago, ender4 said:

I agree with you on Arsenal, Man City, Liverpool and Chelsea.  

However Man Utd are surely a little stronger now? 

Spurs simply have a better manager which will make a massive difference. 

I guess we have to include Newcastle now who are also stronger?

 

So IMO  in summary:

Arsenal - Stronger

Spurs - Stronger because of manager

Man Utd - Stronger

Liverpool - weaker

Man City - weaker but still insanely strong

Newcastle - stronger

Chelsea - much weaker

Brighton - weaker

Villa - much stronger

I'd agree that Newcastle are stronger, but not a huge amount better.

Brighton I would also agree, but we say that every year and they seem to have a couple of players who step up and bring them back to the same level so I'm not 100% sure.

I'm not sure how Man Utd are stronger? Hojlund is not an improvement on Martial yet. He needs lots of time to settle and develop. Maybe one day. Mount is a straight swap in the starting eleven for Eriksen. They don't both play. Obama is replacing the keeper with the most clean sheets last season. If there is any improvement it is microscopic in my opinion.

I can't agree on the Tottenham arguement though. Not yet. Yes the manager makes a huge difference, we above anyone recognise that, but they have lost Kane and apparently will lose Hjojberg too. That is two of their three best players. They have brought in Maddison but he is not going to contribute nearly as much as those two did. Regarding Postecoglu, I am yet to be convinced that he is anything like a top manager. He might be, I just haven't seen any evidence yet. I certainly don't think he's an upgrade on Conte. He's just less nuts! Anyone can succeed at Celtic and he has never managed in a big league before. You might be right but I can't agree yet.

Edited August 30, 2023 by Monkeypuzzle

[viivvaa66]

On 30/08/2023 at 10:02, ender4 said:

I agree with you on Arsenal, Man City, Liverpool and Chelsea.  

However Man Utd are surely a little stronger now? 

Spurs simply have a better manager which will make a massive difference. 

I guess we have to include Newcastle now who are also stronger?

 

So IMO  in summary:

Arsenal - Stronger

Spurs - Stronger because of manager

Man Utd - Stronger

Liverpool - weaker

Man City - weaker but still insanely strong

Newcastle - stronger

Chelsea - much weaker

Brighton - weaker

Villa - much stronger

My view:

ManC - Going to win the league again

Arsenal - I think they are missing Xhaka, they have started like they ended last season, not the same level as start of last season.

ManU - They have been lucky so far, lack consistency. Could be saved by a good January window if they get new owners.

Newcastle - Better players, but as a team they are worse. Their midfield is not as effective as last season.

Liverpool - The best forward line in the league, but midfield and defence is not as good.

Brighton - Better than last season, but they still have those shock loses.

Tottenham - New manager makes the difference. Even without Kane they have improved.

Chelsea - Will they make top half this season? I’m not sure.

West Ham - Back to the form they had two seasons ago.

 

I think ManC and Arsenal will make up the top 2. ManU and Newcastle will lose their CL places. And 3 of Us, Liverpool, Brighton and Spurs will take the remaining CL spots.

[HanoiVillan]

Logically, if you win the games against the shit teams and lose the games against the good teams, you're destined to finish around midtable. 

[VillaChris]

1 minute ago, HanoiVillan said:

Logically, if you win the games against the shit teams and lose the games against the good teams, you're destined to finish around midtable. 

Man. United finished 3rd with that logic last season

They lost away to Newcastle, Arsenal, Man. City and Liverpool by a combined score of 18-5 anyway.

Today has been a bad day but need to get focused and beat Palace and get something at Chelsea. At least 10 points from first 6 is a good start in anyone's book.

Edited September 3, 2023 by VillaChris

[Mark Albrighton]

I know that this thread will be scoffed at after today. Fine, I think it’s a bit fanciful too.

I’d put the thought somewhere else however this appears to be the thread to discuss league position aspirations.

Speaking with a view to finish higher than we did last season - not necessarily finishing in the top four.

While I’m not pleased about surrendering games in the manner against teams we’re hoping to jostle with come the end of the season, I don’t think losing away to the likes of Newcastle and Liverpool is the going to be the thing that prevents that improvement.

I think if we avoid replicating some of the bad results from last season - like only picking up 22 points from a possible 48 from Bournemouth, Palace, West Ham, Fulham, Wolves, Forest and whoever this season’s equivalent of Leeds and Leicester are - then we will improve our chances despite losing against the better teams around us.

We improve the points return in those kind of games - which we really should - we’ll be fine. Wouldn’t even have to be a full 48 out of 48, 30 to 35 points would be a major boost.

Improving on that mediocre points return against the mediocre sides would also help offset poor results against, say, an improved Spurs side. If we do in fact come up short against them.

 

Provided the injuries kindly **** the **** off.

[DCJonah]

Trying to finish higher than 7th looks difficult so far.

Brighton continue to look good and spurs and West Ham look much better. 

Long season but this hasn't been the dream start to the season. 

[Demitri_C]

Is it April 1st already?

[VillaChris]

3 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

Trying to finish higher than 7th looks difficult so far.

Brighton continue to look good and spurs and West Ham look much better. 

Long season but this hasn't been the dream start to the season. 

Beat Palace and draw at Chelsea and we'd still be on course for 60 point season playing only two home games. 60 points will always have you in the mix for 6th place.

[Farlz]

Yeah we are miles off this. 

Take all the cup competitions serious and finish top half/try push for 7th again would be good though. 

[Villaphan04]

It really is a good thing that we got Newcastle (A) & Liverpool (A) out of the way this early in the season. 

[Demitri_C]

Just now, Villaphan04 said:

It really is a good thing that we got Newcastle (A) & Liverpool (A) out of the way this early in the season. 

Is it? We have lost 8-1 in those two games

[Mark Albrighton]

4 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

Is it? We have lost 8-1 in those two games

I suppose the thought is if we’re going to have a stuttering start (which, hey, seems what we just do), it’s better that it’s points dropped against the better sides.

I’d be more concerned if we had lost the two games against Bournemouth and Palace instead and still had Newcastle and Liverpool away to come.