Danny Ings

[MaVilla]

2 minutes ago, Delphinho123 said:

One of the things that annoys me most when discussing Ings. This idea that he can play behind the striker is absolute nonsense. He's an out and out no.9. Someone who plays on the shoulder and tends to be in the right place at the right time. He's not a link up player and even if he was, very few teams play with a deeper striker now anyway so he wouldn't fit our system.

He's competition for Watkins. In my eyes, it really is that simple. We play a formation with two narrow '10's' behind a striker - Bailey/Buendia/Traore or even one of Ramsey/McGinn if we play a midfield further forward. I don't see many scenarios moving forward where Watkins is pushed out wide or plays as one of these '10's' and Ings plays through the middle. 

Ings needs to battle it out with Watkins for that no.9 position. I think he's a good enough player to make the position his own, I'm just not sure if our overall play benefits having Ings in over Watkins due to the latters work rate and willingness to run all day!

It is worth mentioning that Ings is on a monster contract here and will have very little resale value in a couple of years time, if not in 12 months time. I think it's great we have competition for that striker position but the club needs to be pragmatic on this one and if they feel the cost on Ings outweighs the benefit he brings to the squad, then moving him on early and admitting it hasn't worked out, wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. We have other areas of the pitch that need addressing and whether you like Ings or not, 120k a week over the next 4 years will massively reduce our ability to spend big on another player due to our wage bill. 

Sanson can play that role also.

[allani]

10 minutes ago, useless said:

Not sure why so many seem to think that Ings can play as a winger or a No.10, he's about as close as you'll get to an old fashioned predator in the box type striker that you will get in the premier league these days, the only reason Southampton played him wide is because they lack options, have to remember they have one of the worst squads in the league, Hasenhüttl doing an underrated job with them, any half decent team shouldn't be playing Ings anywhere other than as a striker through the middle, least of all us, we've got more wing options than most.

He should be backup to Watkins, if he's someone who can come on in games when we need a goal, or replace Watkins when he's injured or suspened then he's a good player to have, it just depends on whether he will be happy to have that role. But certainly we shouldn't be trying to shoehorn both him and Watkins in the same starting eleven, doing that probably in part contributed to Smith losing his job.

I think Ollie is more likely to fill that role than Ings.  Ollie's finishing and general holding the ball up both need considerable work.  I don't think we can judge anyone based on what worked (or didn't) with Dean as SG has a different approach.  I thought Nakamba was a liability but he's been one of our best players under SG.  McGinn was on his way out but seems to have had the kick up the **** he needed.  Would I have preferred another attacking player to Ings - yes (and that player is scoring hatfuls of goals this season).

[The Fun Factory]

Ings is a good finisher, no doubt about that. Better than Watkins. But Watkins is younger, fitter and does a lot more work off the ball and fits our system.

The days of  the out and out goal poachers is disappearing.

[Delphinho123]

2 minutes ago, MaVilla said:

Sanson can play that role also.

Yep, I could honestly see us line up with something like this moving forward:

-----------------Watkins-------------------
---------McGinn----Buendia----------
----Luiz----------------------Sanson----
---------------Nakamba------------------

You've obviously got Ramsey in there too. It's high energy and we'll be harder to play through. 

FWIW, and I hate to say it, I think Grealish would really flourish in this system. 

[useless]

There's no reason whatsoever for us to move Watkins from his current role as the main striker through the middle, no coincidence that our form has improved since he was moved back there, it's the position where he did so well with Brentford and that earned him a big money move to the premier league, and it's playing that position for us last season that earned him an England call up, Watkins as a striker is the best attacker we have, and of the the best three or four players we have full stop.

We've gol Buendia, Traore, El Ghazi, Trezeguet, Bailey, Philogene-Bidace, Archer, Ashley Young, and even Jacob Ramsey and Carney Chukwuemeka who can play wide of the striker, we don't need to play one of the best players we have out of position.

Also Watkins has 18 Pl goals and 7 assists in 50 appearances, so his end product isn't bad at all.

[allani]

3 minutes ago, Delphinho123 said:

Yep, I could honestly see us line up with something like this moving forward:

-----------------Watkins-------------------
---------McGinn----Buendia----------
----Luiz----------------------Sanson----
---------------Nakamba------------------

You've obviously got Ramsey in there too. It's high energy and we'll be harder to play through. 

FWIW, and I hate to say it, I think Grealish would really flourish in this system. 

Who is scoring our goals?  McGinn and Buendia are unlikely to score more than 7 a season each.  Ollie is maybe 15-20.  Luiz, Sanson and Nakamba unlikely to get more than 2 between them.  That makes us incredibly reliant on our defenders scoring loads of goals from set pieces.  31 goals a season between the 6 most advanced players in the squad means we need to keep a hell of a lot of clean sheets.

[Delphinho123]

12 minutes ago, allani said:

Who is scoring our goals?  McGinn and Buendia are unlikely to score more than 7 a season each.  Ollie is maybe 15-20.  Luiz, Sanson and Nakamba unlikely to get more than 2 between them.  That makes us incredibly reliant on our defenders scoring loads of goals from set pieces.  31 goals a season between the 6 most advanced players in the squad means we need to keep a hell of a lot of clean sheets.

 I think Mcginn and Buendia could get 10 each for a start. 

[nick76]

19 minutes ago, Delphinho123 said:

Yep, I could honestly see us line up with something like this moving forward:

-----------------Watkins-------------------
---------McGinn----Buendia----------
----Luiz----------------------Sanson----
---------------Nakamba------------------

You've obviously got Ramsey in there too. It's high energy and we'll be harder to play through. 

FWIW, and I hate to say it, I think Grealish would really flourish in this system. 

The lack of goals in this formation would kill us.  Teams will just try and nullify Watkins and then know we are unlikely to score.

[Steero113]

1 minute ago, Delphinho123 said:

 I think Mcginn and Buendia could get 10 each for a start. 

If Sanson can string a run of games together he's a 6-8 a season player too if you take his Marseille form. 

[allani]

1 minute ago, Delphinho123 said:

 I think Mcginn and Buendia could get 10 each for a start. 

I would be very happy if that were the case. 

[nick76]

None of these three have 10 goals in a season and playing 5 fairly central midfield ish players together who aren’t renowned for goals, yet we want to dump Ings off who scores goals. Beyond logic!

[Don_Simon]

4 minutes ago, nick76 said:

None of these three have 10 goals in a season and playing 5 fairly central midfield ish players together who aren’t renowned for goals, yet we want to dump Ings off who scores goals. Beyond logic!

Who do you drop to have Ings in the team?

[Laughable Chimp]

29 minutes ago, allani said:

Who is scoring our goals?  McGinn and Buendia are unlikely to score more than 7 a season each.  Ollie is maybe 15-20.  Luiz, Sanson and Nakamba unlikely to get more than 2 between them.  That makes us incredibly reliant on our defenders scoring loads of goals from set pieces.  31 goals a season between the 6 most advanced players in the squad means we need to keep a hell of a lot of clean sheets.

You're forgetting the fact that we have attacking players beyond our first 11. El Ghazi by himself chipped in with 10 goals last season and he wasn't even our first choice winger.

[allani]

10 minutes ago, Delphinho123 said:

 I think Mcginn and Buendia could get 10 each for a start. 

I know that we shouldn't take what has already happened this season too far (especially as I keep saying that SG plays a different way) but for some type of context: Ollie has 4 in 13, McGinn 3 in 14, Emi 1 in 14, Leon 1 in 9, JJ 1 (should be 2!) in 13.  With the exception of AEG no other midfielder has scored this season.  Admittedly with a top quality defensive midfielder (hell it has already started with Nakamba stepping up) some of our midfielders should have more licence to attack the box than they did under Dean so I would expect their strike rates to go up.  Just seems a massive jump to be expecting 3 or 4 of those midfielders to suddenly be doubling / trebling / more their current goal involvement.

[useless]

Only six teams have scored more goals than us this season, the current top four, and then Man Utd and Leicester.

[Delphinho123]

We just scored 2 past Leicester (3 actually) and missed a shed load of chances which on any other day, could have gone in. 

Im not worried if we play 4 midfielders and then Buendia and Watkins. The goals will come, they’ll just be shared out around the team. 

This idea that you need Ings to play or El Ghazi to play to score goals is way too simplistic. The system and the formation is the most important thing. Get that right with our best, most hard working players in it, and the goals will come. Yes, we won’t score as many as the Liverpool’s, Chelsea’s etc. but we need to be harder to beat first and foremost. 

[DaveAV1]

It will be interesting to see how Ings is used once fit again. SG seems pretty proactive in his game management and use of subs. A fresh Danny Ings for the last 20/30 minutes against tiring defenders could be very effective. 

[Delphinho123]

1 minute ago, DaveAV1 said:

It will be interesting to see how Ings is used once fit again. SG seems pretty proactive in his game management and use of subs. A fresh Danny Ings for the last 20/30 minutes against tiring defenders could be very effective. 

Agreed. He's a weapon in our arsenal for sure. 

[MentalM]

13 minutes ago, useless said:

Only six teams have scored more goals than us this season, the current top four, and then Man Utd and Leicester.

10 teams have scored more from open play.

 

[allani]

6 minutes ago, Laughable Chimp said:

You're forgetting the fact that we have attacking players beyond our first 11. El Ghazi by himself chipped in with 10 goals last season and he wasn't even our first choice winger.

Agreed.  But last season of the 10 teams that finished above us only Everton scored fewer goals than us.  47 v 55.  Arsenal and Chelsea scored a comparable number.  The other 7 all scored noticeably more - with five scoring more than 10 goals more (which according to the numbers above would be the target for our second highest scorer).  By contract only 3 teams conceded significantly fewer goals.  It just seems odd (to me) that we are talking about our attacking system being absolutely untouchable in terms of "we only play 1 striker" so we shouldn't consider two strikers as an option - when the big difference between us and the teams above us is our goal threat.  We can argue all we like about whether Son, Mane, Salah, etc are "strikers" but they all score around the same number of goals as our "only" striker.  Relying on Watkins to such a big degree seems like a massive gamble to me.