Tammy Abraham

[MotoMkali]

3 minutes ago, nick76 said:

One is in the PL and one in the poor Scottish league

You said this about Callum Wilson who never has ever played as a winger.  You cant just make things up to support your argument.  I can make stuff up too...Tammy can be a defender because he's so tall...it's just nonsense and not valid for this discussion.

This is incorrect and if you want to compare Edouard then compare Tammy's link up play when he was with us in the Championship (almost equivalent levels) which was excellent with jack and co.  Plus dont we have Jack, Buendia, Traore and we are hoping to get ESR to do build up player.  What we need is somebody to put the ball in the net when those chances are created.  We dont necessarily need another creator or a striker that plays anywhere but in the box.  We are collecting some of the best creators in the PL and when they create, which they will, we need somebody in the box finishing off.  So while I disagree with you around Tammy's build up play, it's at least sufficient for what we need even in worse case scenario, he can score the goals created.

So Edouard could be a lot more expensive than 15m to us as well.  At what point do you think he's value for money? 20m, 25m, 30m?  you are also guessing on what tammy's price might be at 20m.  If Edouard was 25m and tammy was 35m does that make a difference.

 

Ok before I get told off I will stop on this thread because we do have a Tammy thread.  So if you want to debate me take it over there to the Tammy thread as I am stopping about Tammy on this thread because I am worried about @Lord Willard health if I continue.

1st you didn't say that. You said tammy had better goalscoring stats irregardless of leagues. Which isn't true obviously. 

Celtic played silly Bugger but they need to sell 25 mil is still good value compared to a 35 mil tammy. Although I suspect 20 mil would be enough to get him. As the sell on fee is just based on profit. So that would be equivalent to them getting 15 mil.

You can only score the goals available that's true but at a certain point you aren't going to score more goals just how it works. I think tammy has the first touch of a man with lead shoes. He isn't a great passr

And whilst he is unbelievable at snatching up half chances in the box he also misses them for days. He missed the (tied for) 4th most big chances last season despite only scoring 15 goals. Only firminho and Jesus were worse were they missed the same number but scored fewer.

And in regards to his build up play, just look at his stats on fbref. 20th percentile among forwards for passes, 17th percentile for xA, 15th percentile for key passes, 31st for passing accuracy, 32nd percentile for dribbles attempted, 2nd percentile for takeon success rate, 4th percentile for progressive carries, 11th percentile for shot creating actions, 49th percentile for pressures (albeit he does pressure successfully with a 29.7% success rate 82nd percentile). 

[nick76]

9 minutes ago, Jas10 said:

Tammy:

Ollie:

ok in plain English explain please? seems tammy good in some areas and Ollie good all around

[VillanousOne]

58 minutes ago, CVByrne said:

Lazy journalism isn't it. People think JAck is going to City so who would Villa spend the money on. Oh they will get Tammy. We don't need Tammy that much and having to fit him in with Watkins would probably be an issue. 

the link was before the Jack to City rumours blew up.

there haven't been any other links (not even lazy click bait) since so not sure why this thread is still going

[MotoMkali]

3 minutes ago, nick76 said:

ok in plain English explain please? seems tammy good in some areas and Ollie good all around

Tammy is very good at scoring goals and defending inside the box presumably from set pieces. Watkins is good to great at pretty much everything except general passing. Although he out classes Tammy quite heavily there as well. 

[KangarooVillan]

11 minutes ago, nick76 said:

I said my piece about Alvarez earlier in the thread...in summary there is so much risk around Alvarez helping in the first year or two.

I think we have to stop thinking of second string and that we have two players fighting for one shirt (this is without the debate about injuries, tactics, suspensions, formations, form, tiredness or whatever).  We need two players fighting for one shirt which Ollie currently has the shirt...top 8 teams have squads, our fans keep thinking about the first XI and back up players.  We need to uplift our thinking if we are going attain a European place.  We cant think we are going to get a European place but dont set ourselves up to give us that chance.

Maybe the older player maybe a way but most will still have a decent transfer fee with no resell value whereas Tammy is 23 so if it doesnt work then we still sell him when he's 25/26 with resell value.  Then quality older signings will be on massive wages and some maybe wont have the desire either and just looking for a last pay day so it's definitely possible but we'd have to be careful.  Plus we seem to want younger players to grow togethers and only Young has been outside that but if a quality player comes up then great.  As I said I am open to options just for me at the moment Tammy is head and shoulders on balance above other players.

If you could pick Tammy, ESR, or a £40M DM who would you pick?

[Jas10]

I don’t think anyone would object if we ended up bidding for or signing Tammy, the main factor or concern is cost and use of our budget (I’m sure it would take up a huge part of it, likely the majority of what is remaining). We need  enough funds to strengthen in other areas too. So the main discussion point for the “naysayers” is simply that.

No one is saying we don’t need more strength in depth & competition. Just, why Tammy? Over anyone else?

Loan with a view to buy would be great and we could see how it would work before committing but I don’t see Chelsea going for that.

It’d be great to have two genuine goalscorers competing for a spot. But there is no way we are playing with two strikers unless one is shifted wide (please no), why does that keep being brought up? Dean has never done it and is not about to do it now. We need strength and numbers in midfield to compete in every game & Dean isn’t all of a sudden about to play with 5 at the back. Our signings don’t correspond with that either, where would the wingers fit in?

There have been many complaints by people and calls for Dean to change the system during his tenure, he’s never really done it. Why would he now? When it’s largely worked well for us so far? Last season was a big step forward for us, why stray from that and risk unsettling the team or undoing all the hard work?

I know some say we should change the system/formation depending on the game and opposition. Again, Dean doesn’t really do that. We’ve seen enough evidence of that.

It would be a challenge to keep Ollie and another quality CF happy/settled - that’s easier to do if the player is bought for a more modest fee and not given any guarantees. Tammy would demand first team football, otherwise he would just stay at Chelsea or go elsewhere. He would demand a hefty wage too. There’s no way he would be happy to sit on the bench for the majority of the time and neither would Ollie, especially after his breakthrough season as a PL CF. He has been exceptional for us and is only going to get better.

We shouldn’t rule Wesley out either, shouldn’t assume he won’t be in contention. That call is for Dean to make. But I would personally like us to move Davis on - not a goalscorer.

I just don’t get the fixation on Tammy in particular. There are other players that would cost less, possibly offer more in play and are more versatile in terms of the forward positions they could cover and not expect to immediately start or play the majority of games. Tammy would largely require us to be dominating games and creating a bucketload of chances for him on a regular basis - I can’t see him contributing as much as Ollie does when we are struggling or under pressure.

Again, cost and value is the main factor here. Not that Tammy isn’t worth £40m in today’s market but is it worth us spending £40m and a huge share of our budget on him?

Yes, we could really do with another striker or forward (a goalscorer) but it doesn’t have to be Tammy. 

Competition and cover is great but we have to be careful and wise about our spending.

If we sign Tammy, great. But there have been no bids or evidence of genuine interest. Just speculation and rumours, and there will continue to be plenty of that throughout the remainder of the window.

Our scouting team is there to identify talent and value too… we won’t just/exclusively be looking at renowned and high profile PL players…

[rodders0223]

Sod the statistics. You can't have too much fire power. Dzeko, Balo, Tevez, Aguero - OGS, Sheringham, Yorke, Cole

Just get into Europe and everyone is happy. Sorted.

 

Tammy passes the eyetest. He was bloody brilliant for us, has been good for Chelsea on the next level.

 

Get him signed.

 

[Jas10]

14 minutes ago, nick76 said:

ok in plain English explain please? seems tammy good in some areas and Ollie good all around

Stats don’t give you the full picture, there’s so many other factors to consider including the team the player plays for, game time, amount of chances/opportunities. Thank don’t rely on stats personally but they are a good guiding factor or basis.

I didn’t post that to make a point, just to put it out there for people to review and possibly discuss.

My simple/basic take just from that is:

Ollie offers so much more in his overall game/play - superior passing, dribbling, pressures. He contributes a lot more in a game and is highly involved.

Tammy is much more of a penalty box poacher who requires service to be effective or prominent.

[Jas10]

1 hour ago, CVByrne said:

Lazy journalism isn't it. People think JAck is going to City so who would Villa spend the money on. Oh they will get Tammy. We don't need Tammy that much and having to fit him in with Watkins would probably be an issue. 

I agree, that’s where the link has come from. Media bs as usual, an easy and obvious link to bring up really.

Nothing yet to suggest we are actually interested or will make a bid.

We shall see.

[Jas10]

Question:

Would those who are so keen be so interested or enthusiastic if Tammy had never played for us?

I think it’s best to judge without that emotional attachment/investment tbh.

The same goes for Tuanzebe.

[nick76]

2 minutes ago, MotoMkali said:

1st you didn't say that. You said tammy had better goalscoring stats irregardless of leagues. Which isn't true obviously. 

Celtic played silly Bugger but they need to sell 25 mil is still good value compared to a 35 mil tammy. Although I suspect 20 mil would be enough to get him. As the sell on fee is just based on profit. So that would be equivalent to them getting 15 mil.

. I think tammy has the first touch of a man with lead shoes. He isn't a great passr

And whilst he is unbelievable at snatching up half chances in the box he also misses them for days. He missed the (tied for) 4th most big chances last season despite only scoring 15 goals. Only firminho and Jesus were worse were they missed the same number but scored fewer.

And in regards to his build up play, just look at his stats on fbref. 20th percentile among forwards for passes, 17th percentile for xA, 15th percentile for key passes, 31st for passing accuracy, 32nd percentile for dribbles attempted, 2nd percentile for takeon success rate, 4th percentile for progressive carries, 11th percentile for shot creating actions, 49th percentile for pressures (albeit he does pressure successfully with a 29.7% success rate 82nd percentile). 

I've just checked and yes Tammy gpm is not quite as good in PL/Championship as Edouard in the Scottish PL so I got that wrong but given it's less than 40mpg when you are comparing what levels they are playing you would expect a lot bigger difference.  The teams Edouard are playing against weekly compared to Tammy is light and day but I was wrong.

You have no idea what Celtic would sell at and no idea what Tammy would be sold by Chelsea.  I still think Tammy at £40m is far better value than Edouard at £20m.

16 minutes ago, MotoMkali said:

You can only score the goals available that's true but at a certain point you aren't going to score more goals just how it works.

Surely Edouard would have more chances or should be in a place to receive more chances than Tammy would.  Look at Celtic and the poor league they are in and Tammy is playing in the PL against some of the best club teams around.  You are arguing in favour of my point.

17 minutes ago, MotoMkali said:

And whilst he is unbelievable at snatching up half chances in the box he also misses them for days. He missed the (tied for) 4th most big chances last season despite only scoring 15 goals. Only firminho and Jesus were worse were they missed the same number but scored fewer.

Shock, horror!!! a 23 year old player isnt the finished article.  The fact that he's getting in the right place is massive and under some good coaching, think what will happen if he takes 10% more, 20%, 50% more of those chances.  You dont have to do much more and you have a 20 goal a season striker......how are you against this??  he gets into the situations to score and he's 23 years old and the fact that he scored 15 goals but still missed a load of chances....he gets into the position of scoring goals...that's a major part of the battle.

21 minutes ago, MotoMkali said:

nd in regards to his build up play, just look at his stats on fbref. 20th percentile among forwards for passes,

because he is the striker, likely the most advanced player!

I'm reading your other stats....you do realise he's a striker, a goal scorer...I'm waiting for you to put how many saves

 

 

 

At the end of the day if the below is not good enough for you then I'm we are not going to agree

Quote

6 league goals last season in 1033 minutes in the top league, that's equivalent as 1 in just under every 2 games and a lot of those minutes were bits of games and not a long run.  Overall he got 12 goals in 1533 minutes which is less that 1 goals in every 1.5 matches. 

The season before he scored in the top league 15 goals in equivalent of 1 in every 148 minutes, which is just over 1 in every 1.5 games. 

Then dropping down a level the season before in the Championship he scored 25 league goals in 37 games.

 

[nick76]

23 minutes ago, KangarooVillan said:

If you could pick Tammy, ESR, or a £40M DM who would you pick?

I've said previously my order is

1) CAM

2) Striker

3) DCM

So based on that ESR, then Tammy, then DCM.  If we only had 40m budget left then only ESR.

[TRO]

6 minutes ago, nick76 said:

I've said previously my order is

1) CAM

2) Striker

3) DCM

So based on that ESR, then Tammy, then DCM.  If we only had 40m budget left then only ESR.

We need them all.....but isn't Buendia a CAM or can play as one?

[AVFCforever1991]

2 minutes ago, TRO said:

We need them all.....but isn't Buendia a CAM or can play as one?

I thought he played on the right? Cutting in because he's left footed 

[nick76]

5 minutes ago, TRO said:

We need them all.....but isn't Buendia a CAM or can play as one?

I guess because we are looking to buy ESR that maybe Dean and co dont see him that way that's what I'm taking from that.

Yes it could be about options and what does that mean for Traore but for me, the fact we brought in Buendia and still after ESR suggests that Buendia is being seen as RW as he played for Norwich

Agree we need all of them and hence why we should lock in Tammy now, continue after ESR and if not somebody else and then look for DCM.  People will say we dont have budget and we probably dont but we dont know.

Edited June 30, 2021 by nick76

[MotoMkali]

1 hour ago, Jas10 said:

Stats don’t give you the full picture, there’s so many other factors to consider including the team the player plays for, game time, amount of chances/opportunities. Thank don’t rely on stats personally but they are a good guiding factor or basis.

I didn’t post that to make a point, just to put it out there for people to review and possibly discuss.

My simple/basic take just from that is:

Ollie offers so much more in his overall game/play - superior passing, dribbling, pressures. He contributes a lot more in a game and is highly involved.

Tammy is much more of a penalty box poacher who requires service to be effective or prominent.

Stats don't give you the full picture. But they provide a detailed description of it. And the eye test is far more flawed for most people. For most people because they don't know what to look for it's like watching a painting of a painting. You can never be too sure of what you are actually correct about. Stats help to back up your feelings. And often times provide a more complete picture for which you provide the context and shading. 

[MotoMkali]

1 hour ago, nick76 said:

I've just checked and yes Tammy gpm is not quite as good in PL/Championship as Edouard in the Scottish PL so I got that wrong but given it's less than 40mpg when you are comparing what levels they are playing you would expect a lot bigger difference.  The teams Edouard are playing against weekly compared to Tammy is light and day but I was wrong.

You have no idea what Celtic would sell at and no idea what Tammy would be sold by Chelsea.  I still think Tammy at £40m is far better value than Edouard at £20m.

Surely Edouard would have more chances or should be in a place to receive more chances than Tammy would.  Look at Celtic and the poor league they are in and Tammy is playing in the PL against some of the best club teams around.  You are arguing in favour of my point.

Shock, horror!!! a 23 year old player isnt the finished article.  The fact that he's getting in the right place is massive and under some good coaching, think what will happen if he takes 10% more, 20%, 50% more of those chances.  You dont have to do much more and you have a 20 goal a season striker......how are you against this??  he gets into the situations to score and he's 23 years old and the fact that he scored 15 goals but still missed a load of chances....he gets into the position of scoring goals...that's a major part of the battle.

because he is the striker, likely the most advanced player!

I'm reading your other stats....you do realise he's a striker, a goal scorer...I'm waiting for you to put how many saves

 

 

 

At the end of the day if the below is not good enough for you then I'm we are not going to agree

 

 This is comparisons between other strikers and other strikers only. He is straight up awful for a striker at everything that isn't using his gangly limbs to get on the the ball. He scores goals yes and he is an above average finisher. But his impact on the game is not positive he is awful at almost everything. He is outclassed by pretty much every striker at pretty much everything. Hell **** Chris Wood is a better dribbler than he is. Chris Wood.

Scoring goals as a striker is only a small part of the game. You have to contribute in all phases of play which tammy doesn't and he doesn't help his teammates score which more than makes up for any actual ability he has when putting the ball in the net himself.

Dribbling, Passing, chance creation and Pressing are all key areas for every striker. Tammy Abraham basically has the same profile as chris wood and the vast majority of posters on here were against signing him and I believe you were as well.

The thing is when your midfield is Jorginho, Kovacic and Kante you will get a load of chances. Tammy had about 10 1 on 1s last season due to Jorginho long balls and he missed most of them. That's terrible. He has good positioning and whilst that is hard to teach. Contributing to the rest of play at a Premier league standard is harder. 

Edit:Removed an insult. Sorry. 

Edited June 30, 2021 by MotoMkali

[nick76]

3 minutes ago, MotoMkali said:

Yiu are a clown this is comparisons between other strikers and other strikers only. He is straight up awful for a striker at everything that isn't using his gangly limbs to get on the the ball. He scores goals yes and he is an above average finisher. But his impact on the game is not positive he is awful at almost everything. He is outclassed by pretty much every striker at pretty much everything. Hell **** Chris Wood is a better dribbler than he is. Chris Wood.

Wow! I’m embarrassed for you saying this.

[MotoMkali]

2 minutes ago, nick76 said:

Wow! I’m embarrassed for you saying this.

Actually I'm sorry for calli g you a clown. I should have clarified further in my initial comment. 

[Jas10]

The biggest priority right now is solving the midfield conundrum… I would like some physicality and help in retaining possession and controlling play… aerial ability would be welcome too.

If Dean thinks the personnel we have are capable (don’t forget Sanson and hopefully the return of an in form Luiz) then that’s fine but I would like an addition there as, apart from Nakamba (our only out and out DM/destroyer but limited) , they are all quite similar. All a bit small and lightweight too - when compared to other teams, but they have their attributes.

I don’t want to see us get so easily outmuscled and overpowered at times and especially want us to stop being so loose, hurried and careless in possession.

Such a player is not going to come cheap. 40m is a lot to spend on another CF, wouldn’t leave us with a lot unless we are really going for it this year but FFP also restricts us, moreso than our owners’ wealth.

A quality CAM would be a welcome and pleasant surprise but our first choice wingers are all capable of playing there and doing well.

We are not playing in Europe, less games than the sides higher up, and not competing with the top sides for the league title & also unlikely to be aiming for CL unless we manage to spring a major surprise/shock and consistently perform at a high standard - easier said than done.

We don’t have the capacity and resources of those sides yet… we need to make that first team as strong as possible and there is no need to displace or disrupt at least 7 of our present starters (from last season). 
 

We don’t play so many games to be overly concerned with having 2 players of the same/similar level/ability fighting for the same spot in every/most position(s). We’re not quite there yet, steady progression. 

Hopefully, we manage to qualify for Europe, then we will really need to strengthen the squad as a whole and have major competition. Having a formidable first team with no obvious weaknesses is the priority for now imo.