Team shape, tactics and personnel

[DJBOB]

I think we just have more of a strategy now, compared to Stevie’s “moments of magic” formations and Deano’s “Plan A and only Plan A” stratagem. 

[TRO]

The big thing for me is how they change shape, in reaction to the dynamics of the game. We don't have a plan A or B or C.......We just change mid game.

its easy to negate a static line up, but Villa are like a Chameleon, always changing to suite the demands of the game. There has been a monumental shift from individualism, to total togetherness, the cohesion has been galvanised to near perfection.

Its hard to set up against ,such a fluid line up.

we go from 4-2-3-1 to 4-4-2 to 6-2-2 to 3-5-2 to 4-5-1 and back and forth.....its so hard to follow them.

This is just simply elite tactics, something, I haven't witnessed in my spectator life time.

Edited April 19, 2023 by TRO

[TRO]

20 hours ago, DJBOB said:

I think we just have more of a strategy now, compared to Stevie’s “moments of magic” formations and Deano’s “Plan A and only Plan A” stratagem. 

its night and day.

[duke313]

11 minutes ago, TRO said:

The big thing for me is how they change shape, in reaction to the dynamics of the game. We don't have a plan A or B or C.......We just change mid game.

its easy to negate a static line up, but Villa are like a Chameleon, always changing to suite the demands of the game. There has been a monumental shift from individualism, to total togetherness, the cohesion has been galvanised to near perfection.

Its hard to set up against ,such a fluid line up.

we go from 4-2-3-1 to 4-4-2 to 6-2-2 to 3-5-2 to 4-5-1 and back and forth.....its so hard to follow them.

This is just simply elite tactics, something, I haven't witnessed in my spectator life time.

We should close this thread as none of us can guess what Emery will do 

[TRO]

3 minutes ago, duke313 said:

We should close this thread as none of us can guess what Emery will do 

and that is the total essence of this man.

We don't have to guess, what he is going to do , just wallow in what he does.

Many folk will try to work him out, but he will just keep changing.

[MaVilla]

On 15/04/2023 at 22:22, rubberman said:

Quick question. I see lots of chat about UE setting up to attackdown the left, but RB sitting back as a proper defender (see transfer thread etc). Why is this a good thing? Surely that is predictable and will be countered soon enough. Why wouldn't we want to have the option of attacking down both sides?

its overstated tbh imo.

the left back goes forward and effectively becomes the left wide player, then the RM or shadow striker drift right to effectively be the right wide player, so going forward it becomes kind of a 3-2-4-1/3-2-3-2 of some variance, tbh the only way that becomes predictable is if the right side of the team isnt capable of being potent going forward so all the reliance is solely on the left, if they start to shut the left down, the centre and right opens up and visa versa.

For example, if the team is balanced, they can shut Moreno down, but that can then open up the right side, if the players on the right are of suitable quality to impact the attacks.

I think tbh that with Bailey, we were fairly impotent down the right side, but were strong on the left and centrally.

Also, with the way we load the midfield with the box 4, if they go over the top to shut down the left or right, that opens up to a huge overload in the middle, its less about the "left back fgoing forward being predictable", and more about are the players in those roles, on both sides, capable of providing threat, if they are then its a moot point, as you will then need to shut both sides down.

In the summer, if we invest in the type of player that can drift wide right or drift centrally from the right with the same (or more??) potency than Moreno does, then the threat will be from the left, centre and right, so good luck shutting that down.

i wouldnt get hung up on the left back thing, its just a way of creating a system to build going forward, if the players are good enough you can shut one side down, then we go to the right or central, the problem comes if one of those areas is impotent (which has happened a bit with Bailey imo).

 

[VillaJ100]

Didn't know where to put this but under 'personnel' counts I guess - a good few of the team and Emery were spotted at a restaurant in boldmere today

[TRO]

16 hours ago, MaVilla said:

its overstated tbh imo.

the left back goes forward and effectively becomes the left wide player, then the RM or shadow striker drift right to effectively be the right wide player, so going forward it becomes kind of a 3-2-4-1/3-2-3-2 of some variance, tbh the only way that becomes predictable is if the right side of the team isnt capable of being potent going forward so all the reliance is solely on the left, if they start to shut the left down, the centre and right opens up and visa versa.

For example, if the team is balanced, they can shut Moreno down, but that can then open up the right side, if the players on the right are of suitable quality to impact the attacks.

I think tbh that with Bailey, we were fairly impotent down the right side, but were strong on the left and centrally.

Also, with the way we load the midfield with the box 4, if they go over the top to shut down the left or right, that opens up to a huge overload in the middle, its less about the "left back fgoing forward being predictable", and more about are the players in those roles, on both sides, capable of providing threat, if they are then its a moot point, as you will then need to shut both sides down.

In the summer, if we invest in the type of player that can drift wide right or drift centrally from the right with the same (or more??) potency than Moreno does, then the threat will be from the left, centre and right, so good luck shutting that down.

i wouldnt get hung up on the left back thing, its just a way of creating a system to build going forward, if the players are good enough you can shut one side down, then we go to the right or central, the problem comes if one of those areas is impotent (which has happened a bit with Bailey imo).

 

I agree.

Its all about solutions......I noticed on Saturday,  we was not playing out from the back so often and reverted to more long balls....its this variety, that is hard to counter.

If the opponent does one thing, we do another.......This manager doesn't do rigid.....he does flexible.

Its great to see.

[KentVillan]

On 15/04/2023 at 16:22, rubberman said:

Quick question. I see lots of chat about UE setting up to attackdown the left, but RB sitting back as a proper defender (see transfer thread etc). Why is this a good thing? Surely that is predictable and will be countered soon enough. Why wouldn't we want to have the option of attacking down both sides?

I don’t know to what extent it’s about the players available to him (Moreno is clearly our best attacking full back) and to what extent it’s something he’s developed as a rule, based on most players being right footed.

I wonder if he thinks left footed crosses are more effective because most of the players running on to them are right footed, and it’s a more natural hit. So you put your best left footed crosser at left back and let him ghost into space where he has time to cross.

But just a theory, no idea why he has this history of often pushing the LB higher.

Edit: reminds me there is a proven phenomenon in cricket and tennis that left handed players are slightly overrepresented at elite level and tend to be known as harder to handle. Probably same with boxing? They’re just more confusing for opponents who spend most of their time training against right dominant athletes.

Again, no idea if this factors into his thinking, or if it’s just a coincidence. Maybe this summer he’ll sign an elite right footed attacking full back and change things up. You never know with Emery.

Edited April 20, 2023 by KentVillan

[DJBOB]

On rewatch, impressive by Brentford off the ball and a little disappointed about the goal we gave up though it was a deserved score line at the end. 
 
We came out with our usual shape in ours and middle thirds and Brentford pressed us high into our own box which almost immediately resulted in Buendia scoring in the second minute. Frank took a look and then decided not to engage us on the ball until Mings and Konsa were just crossing into the middle third. From there, they pressed Mings and Konsa from in to out, trying to funnel passes out to Moreno and Young then pinning them against the sideline - not too dissimilar from our strategy against Burn for the Newcastle game. 
 
When we did eventually work it into our midfielders, they were on them quick and did their best not to get them to turn. Buendia/JJ/McGinn I think could’ve been better snapping a one touch pass back to Luiz or Dendoncker in the pivot. Too often they tried to hold up the ball and would lose possession. By leaving Young and then using Mbuemo to man mark Moreno, it became difficult for us to progress into the final third. 
 
When we did progress into the final third, Brentford would drop into a quasi 532, leaving Toney and Mbuemo to mark Luiz and Dendoncker and leave Mings/Konsa unmarked. Our possession slowed and we couldn’t make meaningful passes into the box. 
 
Brentford on the ball were content to let us have it but as soon as they recovered the ball, Toney and Mbuemo would split wide of our fullbacks and Brentford were very effective finding them with cross field switches. From there - they would urgently drive our fullbacks back and look for the back post player, bypassing Mings and Konsa’s aerial ability. This is what eventually led to Brentford’s opener though Young could have and should have cleared it. 
 
I think Unai realized this and wanted to use Chambers and Digne as more physical presence at fullback but the substitution came just a minute too late. Traore as well was more effective creating width as McGinn naturally drifted inside and compressed the pitch further horizontally. 
 
All in all, it was a cagey match and Brentford utilized the strategy that I thought Newcastle would do and urgently mark our midfielders but leave our fullbacks and try make it difficult to play through Buendia and JJ. Our midfielders were uncharacteristically slow in realizing this and held onto possession too often when they should have been touching the ball back to a Villa player instead of trying to hold and turn. But with only Ollie as a vertical threat in behind, I don’t think we were going to be too successful progressing it regardless. Consider Toney and Mbuemo for Brentford and their wide runs as well as the ocassional diagonal between our fullback and center back. We just don’t have something similar unless Bailey/Duran are playing. Bertie is good on the ball but vertically not that player off the ball. 

 
 

Edited April 23, 2023 by DJBOB

[DJBOB]

A special note to our build up falling apart when Olsen came on. Nothing really more to be said but the whole confidence in our build up evaporated to start the second half. Mings especially was absolutely not risking anything back to Olsen which led to a lot of hoofs to start. 

[TomC]

23 hours ago, DJBOB said:

On rewatch, impressive by Brentford off the ball and a little disappointed about the goal we gave up though it was a deserved score line at the end. 
 

Re-watches are great for observing tactics, aren't they? I find that when I'm watching live, and the outcome is in doubt, and I'm on edge, it's a lot harder to focus on the details.

Unfortunately, I rarely have time to watch twice...it's either only live, or only replay...

 

[KMitch]

On 23/04/2023 at 18:22, DJBOB said:

On rewatch, impressive by Brentford off the ball and a little disappointed about the goal we gave up though it was a deserved score line at the end. 
 
We came out with our usual shape in ours and middle thirds and Brentford pressed us high into our own box which almost immediately resulted in Buendia scoring in the second minute. Frank took a look and then decided not to engage us on the ball until Mings and Konsa were just crossing into the middle third. From there, they pressed Mings and Konsa from in to out, trying to funnel passes out to Moreno and Young then pinning them against the sideline - not too dissimilar from our strategy against Burn for the Newcastle game. 
 
When we did eventually work it into our midfielders, they were on them quick and did their best not to get them to turn. Buendia/JJ/McGinn I think could’ve been better snapping a one touch pass back to Luiz or Dendoncker in the pivot. Too often they tried to hold up the ball and would lose possession. By leaving Young and then using Mbuemo to man mark Moreno, it became difficult for us to progress into the final third. 
 
When we did progress into the final third, Brentford would drop into a quasi 532, leaving Toney and Mbuemo to mark Luiz and Dendoncker and leave Mings/Konsa unmarked. Our possession slowed and we couldn’t make meaningful passes into the box. 
 
Brentford on the ball were content to let us have it but as soon as they recovered the ball, Toney and Mbuemo would split wide of our fullbacks and Brentford were very effective finding them with cross field switches. From there - they would urgently drive our fullbacks back and look for the back post player, bypassing Mings and Konsa’s aerial ability. This is what eventually led to Brentford’s opener though Young could have and should have cleared it. 
 
I think Unai realized this and wanted to use Chambers and Digne as more physical presence at fullback but the substitution came just a minute too late. Traore as well was more effective creating width as McGinn naturally drifted inside and compressed the pitch further horizontally. 
 
All in all, it was a cagey match and Brentford utilized the strategy that I thought Newcastle would do and urgently mark our midfielders but leave our fullbacks and try make it difficult to play through Buendia and JJ. Our midfielders were uncharacteristically slow in realizing this and held onto possession too often when they should have been touching the ball back to a Villa player instead of trying to hold and turn. But with only Ollie as a vertical threat in behind, I don’t think we were going to be too successful progressing it regardless. Consider Toney and Mbuemo for Brentford and their wide runs as well as the ocassional diagonal between our fullback and center back. We just don’t have something similar unless Bailey/Duran are playing. Bertie is good on the ball but vertically not that player off the ball. 

 
 

Thomas Frank is a very astute tactician and you could tell from the prematch presser how much Emery respects the man.  I think Emery's response in the 3 substitutions stabilized us and gave us a platform to attack later in the game once the players calmed down after the goal, but like you said it was just a minute too late.  I think Brentford will be an excellent learning opportunity for the squad.  Our build up at the back got significantly better after the Leicester mistakes, so I'm going to bet the squad will know how to better respond in the future to a team who tries to do to us what Brentford did.  

[one_ian_taylor]

On 20/04/2023 at 21:54, KentVillan said:

I don’t know to what extent it’s about the players available to him (Moreno is clearly our best attacking full back) and to what extent it’s something he’s developed as a rule, based on most players being right footed.

I wonder if he thinks left footed crosses are more effective because most of the players running on to them are right footed, and it’s a more natural hit. So you put your best left footed crosser at left back and let him ghost into space where he has time to cross.

But just a theory, no idea why he has this history of often pushing the LB higher.

Edit: reminds me there is a proven phenomenon in cricket and tennis that left handed players are slightly overrepresented at elite level and tend to be known as harder to handle. Probably same with boxing? They’re just more confusing for opponents who spend most of their time training against right dominant athletes.

Again, no idea if this factors into his thinking, or if it’s just a coincidence. Maybe this summer he’ll sign an elite right footed attacking full back and change things up. You never know with Emery.

Would be interesting to know what proportion of our goals  are scored left foot, right foot, header - and whether it's markedly different  with Emery (albeit with a small sample size)

[Vive_La_Villa]

Sometimes I think we slow it down at the back way too much and can become a bit casual but it also works so wtf do I know! 
 

I reckon we raise it and adjust based on the opposition as we showed against Newcastle. 
 

Emery is a genius. 

Edited April 26, 2023 by Vive_La_Villa

[nick76]

13 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

Sometimes I think we slow it down at the back way too much and can become a bit casual but it also works so wtf do I know! 

I think it works well because we had to draw Fulham out and I don’t know if it come across on tv but from my position in the Holte you could really see the frustration of the Fulham players when we kept doing it and then the frustration gets to them and they try to press and move out of position which is what we want and we take advantage.  We all know that’s what we do now but my point was last night I could really see the frustrations of the Fulham players.

[Delphinho123]

27 minutes ago, nick76 said:

I think it works well because we had to draw Fulham out and I don’t know if it come across on tv but from my position in the Holte you could really see the frustration of the Fulham players when we kept doing it and then the frustration gets to them and they try to press and move out of position which is what we want and we take advantage.  We all know that’s what we do now but my point was last night I could really see the frustrations of the Fulham players.

I think it was just boredom!

Fulham knew our plan and didn’t press us. Or certainly pressed as little as possible. When that happens, it can make for a really slow, dull game. But if we win, who cares right..?!

[CVByrne]

We'll be analysed a lot by opposition over the summer so they can work out ways to beat us. So we need better players and to evolve our tactics

[TheMightyVillans]

If we get into europe without coutinho, bailey, kamara and cash being available for the remainder of the season emery is a miracle worker. 

He is working with such a small squad. Really hope we get a couple of them back soon.

[gwi1890]

2 hours ago, nick76 said:

I think it works well because we had to draw Fulham out and I don’t know if it come across on tv but from my position in the Holte you could really see the frustration of the Fulham players when we kept doing it and then the frustration gets to them and they try to press and move out of position which is what we want and we take advantage.  We all know that’s what we do now but my point was last night I could really see the frustrations of the Fulham players.

Agreed another positive is it allowed us time to rest on the ball given that tiredness is starting to become an issue for the players I think last night more so the first half went well.