Team shape, tactics and personnel

[DJBOB]

37 minutes ago, avfc1982am said:

Good points that I agree with, and nobody is saying Dendoncker is better than Kamara. Regardless though, even with Kamara in the side, there is no evidence to suggest we'd have gone on the 10 game unbeaten run or bettered it. It's all hypothetical now. Dendoncker has done really well, although as you say is limited in his movement.

I think we can all see the deficiencies in the squad though(at least most can) and can probably agree that the unbeaten run coincided with us being much more clinical rather than being anywhere near the finished product. Like you say as long as we can stay strong defensively we'll always have a chance. I just think we're running on empty now, teams are probably paying more attention to us tactically and the lack of options to switch it up is a problem. I'm not sure those returning from injury we'll be in good enough shape anyway, it's a bit late now tbh. I just hope we can hold it together for another couple of weeks and get over the line in good order. This summer needs to be big though.

Yes same thoughts. Dare I say it, but a few moments of magic will be needed to get these results. 

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

Interesting this. Via Misha on Facebook. Re Emery's preferred systems etc:

" Posted a snippet from an Unai interview done post PSG a few days ago where he discusses systems...

The interesting part for me were his views on 4-4-2...he said it wasn't his preferred formation but it can make teams more competitive...his reasoning is 4-4-2's are tougher to break down as you have three lines to cut through...

He then states that 4-1-4-1 or 4-3-3 is his preferred setup which he had at PSG...4-4-2 according to him is more zonal positioning while less aggressive pressure wise...

'I like to go and face the opposition. It is a more aggressive idea, but at the same time gives you more space. Like Bielsa’s style, Guardiola’s style. When I lose the ball, I want to get it back immediately. My team, using a 4-1-4-1 formation or a 4-3-3 knows that in any place the ball is, has to apply pressure on it. When the ball moves, apply pressure and try to get it back, respecting the tactical structure. Those are my two readings. Defensively, getting the ball back as soon as possible. Attacking-wise, pressuring. If the ball is standing still, positioning. To me, the 4-1-4-1 formation is the best to try to apply pressure.'

This season we've used a 4-4-2 and it's made us a lot tougher to break down and beat...you could argue it's pragmatism on Unai's part...

What will be interesting to see next season is with a transfer window whether we see that setup change...with the existing squad he's had to be pragmatic but with additions he might be able to get closer to a more desired setup...

The links today for example to say Ugarte if true would point to a system change... "

[TRO]

15 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Interesting this. Via Misha on Facebook. Re Emery's preferred systems etc:

" Posted a snippet from an Unai interview done post PSG a few days ago where he discusses systems...

The interesting part for me were his views on 4-4-2...he said it wasn't his preferred formation but it can make teams more competitive...his reasoning is 4-4-2's are tougher to break down as you have three lines to cut through...

He then states that 4-1-4-1 or 4-3-3 is his preferred setup which he had at PSG...4-4-2 according to him is more zonal positioning while less aggressive pressure wise...

'I like to go and face the opposition. It is a more aggressive idea, but at the same time gives you more space. Like Bielsa’s style, Guardiola’s style. When I lose the ball, I want to get it back immediately. My team, using a 4-1-4-1 formation or a 4-3-3 knows that in any place the ball is, has to apply pressure on it. When the ball moves, apply pressure and try to get it back, respecting the tactical structure. Those are my two readings. Defensively, getting the ball back as soon as possible. Attacking-wise, pressuring. If the ball is standing still, positioning. To me, the 4-1-4-1 formation is the best to try to apply pressure.'

This season we've used a 4-4-2 and it's made us a lot tougher to break down and beat...you could argue it's pragmatism on Unai's part...

What will be interesting to see next season is with a transfer window whether we see that setup change...with the existing squad he's had to be pragmatic but with additions he might be able to get closer to a more desired setup...

The links today for example to say Ugarte if true would point to a system change... "

really interesting.

I still think every system has merit of some kind......they all have their idiosynchrasies....and their places.

I also think, systems are influenced by the player profile of the squad....and I also think one does not necessarily fit all.

I am confident UE has the knowledge and Nous to know his way around all this stuff with aplomb.....I can now relax in the comfort, thet he can change games in progress.....but he needs a more diverse squad profile to max this out.....we still are a bit samey.....I'm hoping our planned summer, helps him with this.

Personally, I have never dismissed 4-4-2...but like I say, it has its ups and its downs, much like man marking and zonal marking....many things go through trends, but they all have their benefits.

We can have all these things taped.....but it still comes down to players playing well, within the confines, of those instructions.

Remember what Unai said after the United game " We didn't meet the demands that the game required".....He will not accept that too often, despite how well the players have played.

So many things today, need to be right....its still a simple game, but when opponents are as keen to beat you, and fiesty with it.....we have to be " Prepared ".....sorry for the pun.

Edited May 11, 2023 by TRO

[Keyblade]

33 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Interesting this. Via Misha on Facebook. Re Emery's preferred systems etc:

" Posted a snippet from an Unai interview done post PSG a few days ago where he discusses systems...

The interesting part for me were his views on 4-4-2...he said it wasn't his preferred formation but it can make teams more competitive...his reasoning is 4-4-2's are tougher to break down as you have three lines to cut through...

He then states that 4-1-4-1 or 4-3-3 is his preferred setup which he had at PSG...4-4-2 according to him is more zonal positioning while less aggressive pressure wise...

'I like to go and face the opposition. It is a more aggressive idea, but at the same time gives you more space. Like Bielsa’s style, Guardiola’s style. When I lose the ball, I want to get it back immediately. My team, using a 4-1-4-1 formation or a 4-3-3 knows that in any place the ball is, has to apply pressure on it. When the ball moves, apply pressure and try to get it back, respecting the tactical structure. Those are my two readings. Defensively, getting the ball back as soon as possible. Attacking-wise, pressuring. If the ball is standing still, positioning. To me, the 4-1-4-1 formation is the best to try to apply pressure.'

This season we've used a 4-4-2 and it's made us a lot tougher to break down and beat...you could argue it's pragmatism on Unai's part...

What will be interesting to see next season is with a transfer window whether we see that setup change...with the existing squad he's had to be pragmatic but with additions he might be able to get closer to a more desired setup...

The links today for example to say Ugarte if true would point to a system change... "

Man, when you read that and then remember 8 months ago our tactics were "fullbacks hug the goal line because Liverpool & McGinn and Ramsey vacate the midfield and push up to try to recreate Istanbul " you get dizzy.

[IrishVilla10]

 

[YLN]

4 minutes ago, IrishVilla10 said:

 

 

[The_Steve]

3 hours ago, IrishVilla10 said:

 

An unbelievable stat which shows that despite the teething problems early on, playing out from the back and organising the defence differently, has worked wonders.

[MaVilla]

interesting view this, re how Emery had us playing/setting up.

 

[KentVillan]

7 hours ago, IrishVilla10 said:

 

With VAR awarding millimetre offsides these days, it makes so much sense to have a well drilled offside trap. And psychologically it’s hilarious watching teams celebrate goals against us that then get disallowed

[Follyfoot]

Well I watched match of the day last night and I’m not really a football fan. I don’t watch Aston Villa very often. I think they, Aston Villa play too high a line and will get going out.
 

They also should have given Steven Gerrard more time 

[DJBOB]

5 hours ago, MaVilla said:

interesting view this, re how Emery had us playing/setting up.

 

Contrast the wide spread of our players compared to the narrowness of there’s. Such a balanced system Unai has developed. 

[Guest av1]

6 minutes ago, Follyfoot said:

Well I watched match of the day last night and I’m not really a football fan. I don’t watch Aston Villa very often. I think they, Aston Villa play too high a line and will get going out.
 

They also should have given Steven Gerrard more time 

It was pretty embarrassing mate. The defensive line was brilliant so it was right they praised it, but to spend the whole analysis period on it was pathetic. We battered Spurs yesterday and if you’d only watched MOTD you probably think the only difference was a couple of offside decisions. 

[CVByrne]

12 hours ago, IrishVilla10 said:

 

Liverpool have lead this stat every season. They play a very high line to compact the space. This means you always have players nearer the ball to press it and this stops the timing of runs for working. We didn't do that too well in parts of 2nd half and Spurs did just fluff it. 

It's a really dangerous game the high line and it needs a full team press and work rate to achieve. I feel we are riding our luck a bit with it and we'll be analysed a lot this summer. I expect some tactical evolution as if we are predictable we're going to get exposed 

[Sulberto21]

The one thing that motd did mention was that there was no pressure on the ball a few times and the forwards didn’t arc their runs to beat the trap. 

[CVByrne]

On 11/05/2023 at 19:52, TRO said:

really interesting.

I still think every system has merit of some kind......they all have their idiosynchrasies....and their places.

I also think, systems are influenced by the player profile of the squad....and I also think one does not necessarily fit all.

I am confident UE has the knowledge and Nous to know his way around all this stuff with aplomb.....I can now relax in the comfort, thet he can change games in progress.....but he needs a more diverse squad profile to max this out.....we still are a bit samey.....I'm hoping our planned summer, helps him with this.

Personally, I have never dismissed 4-4-2...but like I say, it has its ups and its downs, much like man marking and zonal marking....many things go through trends, but they all have their benefits.

We can have all these things taped.....but it still comes down to players playing well, within the confines, of those instructions.

Remember what Unai said after the United game " We didn't meet the demands that the game required".....He will not accept that too often, despite how well the players have played.

So many things today, need to be right....its still a simple game, but when opponents are as keen to beat you, and fiesty with it.....we have to be " Prepared ".....sorry for the pun.

It's not really a 4 4 2 when we think of the classic 4 4 2 though. That's because attacking and defensive shapes are totally different now where in past they used to be very close. 

We see top coaches in Arteta, Guardiola and Xavi all adding in the midfield box shape during the course of this season that was what Emery used from the start at Villa. 

Emery has had a left back who is a wide forward in our attacking shape and a back 3 then in build up. So 3 2 2 3 or 3 Box 3.

We've adapted to have Buendia drop off Watkins into the box and Bailey move from RM to be right of front three. Moreno on left. We've also has McGinn and JJ move from LM and RM to form the box.

There's adaptations in there which seem tailored to opposition and also enforced by having injuries. It'll be fascinating how we adapt next season. I wonder if a RB who is more a midfielder will be added as we see with players like Zinchenko, Trent and different players in Guardiola's teams. 

I think Right Back is probably the most interesting position next season. 

Edited May 14, 2023 by CVByrne

[CVByrne]

7 minutes ago, Sulberto21 said:

The one thing that motd did mention was that there was no pressure on the ball a few times and the forwards didn’t arc their runs to beat the trap. 

The key is the pressure on the ball. If we don't have pressure on the ball the high line gets cut to pieces as players have the time in the ball to pick the pass. 

We see us play it a lot because we feel our midfield are better than the majority of the teams in the league. 

We see us play different against top opposition. It'll be a very interesting how we set up against Liverpool. 

[Sulberto21]

Just now, CVByrne said:

The key is the pressure on the ball. If we don't have pressure on the ball the high line gets cut to pieces as players have the time in the ball to pick the pass. 

We see us play it a lot because we feel our midfield are better than the majority of the teams in the league. 

We see us play different against top opposition. It'll be a very interesting how we set up against Liverpool. 

I think they have the best players in attacking positions in the league (yes Man City but Haaland skews that) when it comes to breaking the offside trap. And in TAA they have the best deep lying playmaker to find the forwards behind the line. 

[MSvillain]

50 minutes ago, Sulberto21 said:

I think they have the best players in attacking positions in the league (yes Man City but Haaland skews that) when it comes to breaking the offside trap. And in TAA they have the best deep lying playmaker to find the forwards behind the line. 

We tried a very high line against liverpool last time and got torn to shreds so any adjustments will be interesting to see

Edited May 14, 2023 by MSvillain

[Sulberto21]

1 minute ago, MSvillain said:

We tried a very high line against liverpool last time and got torn to shreds so any adjustments will be interesting to see

The mad thing from that game was we had so many chances to score too. It could have been a 7-7 game. 

[JPJCB]

8 hours ago, MaVilla said:

interesting view this, re how Emery had us playing/setting up.

 

An aside but this is helpful in figuring out how in the hell spurs’ expected goals stats were higher than ours despite any ordinary observer seeing how we dominated the game.

if you look at the flow of XG over time spurs basically had nothing until the penalty they scored from which, given it was a penalty, had super high XG. I feel like they should update how pens are treated in the calculation to factor in the likelihood of scoring from the position when the player was fouled rather than just using the pen itself on its own. Otherwise you can have a team peppering the other sides goal all game having a lower XG than a team which does nothing but gets a random pen out of nowhere