Team shape, tactics and personnel

[wilko154]

I just don't get why we are playing a formation where you allow your full backs to get forward, and then ask your two centre midfielders to move to full back to cover.

It completely limits Ramsey and McGinn who have the ability to drive forward for us, but are being asked to defend.

And the substitutes... christ...

[Rightdm00]

47 minutes ago, MrBlack said:

It's shocking isn't it.  There was a moment in the second half where we had a great attack going,  and it broke down because Cash hadn't made it forward to support. It was so blatant our forward was looking to play in the overlapping fullback, then realised they weren't there and then we proceeded to give the ball away. 

Cash was brought off shortly after, but it isn't a system that is reliable unless your wing back is Cancelo.

We need a change of personnel and tactics for the next game or we're continuing this winless streak. 

Yep I was raging at that passage. This setup requires Cash to be in two places at the same time. It's impossible. For Liverpool the midfielders track back and win the ball so TAA and Robertson don't have to track back. We don't have the players for it. This silliness needs to stop. 

[AV82]

2 hours ago, Villa87 said:

For me we should go 4231

Emi

Cash Konsa Mings Digne 

Ramsey McGinn

Bailey Coutinho Buendia

Ings

So you've taken how we play now, removed a DM and put in a struggling Bailey. Am I missing something here?

[Villa87]

4 minutes ago, AV82 said:

So you've taken how we play now, removed a DM and put in a struggling Bailey. Am I missing something here?

I agree Bailey is struggling big time. However, we need to stop relying on full backs providing the width. Who else do we have to play wide right considering Traore is injured as well? Luiz isn’t doing the role of DM at all - it’s a toss up between him and McGinn to play to be honest - both been piss poor. What do you suggest regarding shape then?

[AV82]

1 minute ago, Villa87 said:

I agree Bailey is struggling big time. However, we need to stop relying on full backs providing the width. Who else do we have to play wide right considering Traore is injured as well? Luiz isn’t doing the role of DM at all - it’s a toss up between him and McGinn to play to be honest - both been piss poor. What do you suggest regarding shape then?

All fair points! It's a tough one that's for sure. I think we can all agree two number 10's are clogging the middle. It's effectively removing our three CMs from the game and leaving massive gaps behind the fullbacks as we rely on them for width just like you've described.

[Chicken Field]

This whole thing just feels like an audition for the Liverpool job, we are set up basically identically to them, it's just not possible to play like them, without the quality of players that they possess.

My prediction for next game is that Chambers has played to "decently" to get dropped, so I suspect we will go with a back 5. Even though I still have nightmare about playing a back 5 from last time. 
If we just HAVE to play with such attacking fullbacks, a back 5 seems like the only logical choice, I am sick of seeing McGinn and Ramsey playing as semi fullbacks.

I feel like we will go with something along the line of:

Martinez

Cash, Konsa, Chambers, Mings, Digne

Luiz, McGinn

Coutinho, Buendia

Ings

With Chambers and/or Mings allowed to roam out of position.

The back 5 is an effective way of playing if played correctly, which we never have. When we have played with back five, we have always played with semi defensive fullbacks, which is just too defensive.

 

Edited February 19, 2022 by Chicken Field

[Tomaszk]

5 hours ago, Rightdm00 said:

I'm so sick of these flying fullbacks.  

It's exactly the same as Smith when we first came up. He figured it out and eased off. Targett and Cash had strong seasons being pretty conservative.

5 hours ago, Rightdm00 said:

I still don't understand why the fullbacks have to be pushed so far forward. What does it actually give us besides a broken shape that an academy team could exploit. 

As was pointed out after a few games. So so so so easy to play against.

What is the point in having your centre mids at full back, your 10s in midfield and your full backs as wingers?

Just play 433 and have players in position. Or do something different, whatever. 

Don't keep doing to same thing and losing AND playing badly.

[Made In Aston]

34 minutes ago, TRO said:

You can talk tactics, but it won't make a poor player a good one.

our manager probably is in a bit of trouble already with the squad he has.....and I don't think the tactics will change that.

That might be true to some extent, but ill conceived tactics can certainly make a good player look poor. That seems to be the case with us. These players are good enough to beat any team in the lower half but have been found out in the last few games. If we are easy to play against with those teams then we have no chance against top half ones. That is what is worrying. 

[HanoiVillan]

We seem to have snookered ourselves a little, as we don't look good at all playing this system, but Buendia and Coutinho are the two players who look like they might provide a spark and make something happen, and almost any alternative system is going to involve either dropping one or both, or having at least one of them as a wide midfielder with defensive duties covering a full back, and all of these options are sub-optimal in different ways.

However, we have to find a better answer. One option that would maybe be a bit more solid is playing the same XI as today, but as a 4-3-3 with Buendia and Coutinho out wide, but with them dropping into midfield when out of possession, while the relevant CM drops to help the full back. Meanwhile there is a standard that only one full back gets forward at a time, with the other taking a wide midfield position, allowing a 3 across the middle (one having gone forward to support the attack) so that we can compete in the middle of the park to stop counter-attacks.

All of this will be a bit easier if and when Nakamba gets fit again. That said, I don't envy Gerrard in the meantime. His current plan doesn't work, and there's a tough decision between working on it extensively on the one hand, or junking it and starting again on the other. We need whichever he chooses to be the right option, and fast.

[Tomaszk]

47 minutes ago, TRO said:

You can talk tactics, but it won't make a poor player a good one.

our manager probably is in a bit of trouble already with the squad he has.....and I don't think the tactics will change that.

We beat Liverpool 7-2 last year with a worse squad.

We got 55 points last year with a worse squad.

These players are plenty good enough to take points against Watford, Newcastle, Leeds and Brentford.

Being a good player doesn't make you a good manager.

Edited February 19, 2022 by Tomaszk

[david-avfc]

1 hour ago, Delphinho123 said:

The system we’re playing right now is horrible. Without a decent DM, or 2 for that matter, I have some sympathy, but still, it’s horrible to watch. 

We’re not capable of playing like Liverpool and we’ll do it next week, the week after, and the week after that. 

We obviously need a new DM but it’s a bit of a red herring because a lack of a DM doesn’t explain why we failed to create any chances with 60% possession or why Digne played most of the game up front with Ramsey at left back today. It’s Lambert-era bizarreness.

Gerrard needs to stop over complicating things and go back to basics like we did in his first few weeks.

Edited February 19, 2022 by david-avfc

[sharkyvilla]

46 minutes ago, wilko154 said:

I just don't get why we are playing a formation where you allow your full backs to get forward, and then ask your two centre midfielders to move to full back to cover.

It completely limits Ramsey and McGinn who have the ability to drive forward for us, but are being asked to defend.

And the substitutes... christ...

Someone posted a diagram of Gerrard's tactics via twitter the other day and it looked remarkably like a nipple.  All the players in a circle with Luiz in the middle.

[sidcow]

I don't know why Gerrard keeps taking off Buendia. Everytime he does it we lose whatever creativity we had but it's the same thing everytime.

If he wanted Bailey on Ings was the man to make way.  

[Laughable Chimp]

20 minutes ago, sidcow said:

I don't know why Gerrard keeps taking off Buendia. Everytime he does it we lose whatever creativity we had but it's the same thing everytime.

If he wanted Bailey on Ings was the man to make way.  

Because then we'd have no striker.

[YLN]

Why is so much of our squad out on loan?

Targett, Trezeguet, El Ghazi, Archer, JPB, Guilbert.

Maybe not our best and brightest, but options for us off the bench that we need. The Villa bench is extremely bare at the moment. I think huge mistakes have been made here. 

[TomC]

On 17/02/2022 at 14:32, briny_ear said:

I know this is not the flavour of the moment in this thread, but it may be a little premature to say that Gerrard's "system" (even if he has a settled one yet) is "not working". That seems extremely impatient and it would probably make sense to give him as much time as Dean Smith was given before coming to such a judgement? 

On 17/02/2022 at 14:26, TRO said:

 I don't want to create a melt down, but we are now seeing, 2 quite different systems, both Deans and Steves.....not working, both have tried umpteen formations and still no consistency is found.

Agreed with both of these...at this point, you can't blame the entire problem on any system. 4-2-3-1, 3-5-2, Deano's 4-3-3, Gerrard's 4-3-3, we've tried them all and things aren't happening this year. Our problem is clearly in midfield, whatever system we play.

 

On 18/02/2022 at 10:55, sharkyvilla said:

I'd be surprised if McGinn isn't motivated.  He doesn't seem like that kind of character and pretty much every manager has picked him because of his attitude even when he is a bit off the boil form-wise.  Doug was at two international tournaments in the summer, sandwiched between two PL seasons and our other defensive midfielder injured.  It's a big workload.

I keep saying it, but Dougie and McGinn both started looking burnt out at the same time last year, and, like you said, this season Dougie had two tournaments last summer on top of his usual workload. Clearly we've had midfield problems all season, clearly we're playing Dougie out of position, and clearly McGinn is not a good passer, but the fatigue isn't helping.

Meanwhile Bentacur seems to be off to a good start for Spurs...we may regret not getting that one done.

 

12 hours ago, Laughable Chimp said:

Interesting stat. Despite losing jack Grealish, we are still the most fouled team in the league and there's a bit of margin between us and second place.

Very interesting, especially since Bertie also got fouled a lot last year and hasn't played much this year. I'd be curious to see who's getting fouled.

 

2 hours ago, Delphinho123 said:

Our fullbacks are everything and our central midfielders are basically defenders. It’s boring and we’ve been found out.

We've definitely been found out. The commentator here in the States pointed out that Watford basically copied Newcastle's plan from last week. And it worked both times...they both shut us down. You can't be predictable in attack. I have no problem with the the fullbacks getting forward sometimes, but you need to vary the point of attack. Sometimes let the fullbacks come forward, sometimes push the wide midfielders forward, sometimes let Coutinho and Buendia drift out wide, sometimes play it up the middle of the park.

 

1 hour ago, AV82 said:

I think we can all agree two number 10's are clogging the middle. It's effectively removing our three CMs from the game and leaving massive gaps behind the fullbacks as we rely on them for width just like you've described.

I will watch for this next game, but I haven't seen them clogging anything. 

 

1 hour ago, HanoiVillan said:

Meanwhile there is a standard that only one full back gets forward at a time, with the other taking a wide midfield position, allowing a 3 across the middle (one having gone forward to support the attack) so that we can compete in the middle of the park to stop counter-attacks.

I like this idea.

[TomC]

On 18/02/2022 at 12:42, OutByEaster? said:

Today's Villa team would run rings around all of those sides - the game is simply faster, more athletic and more physically demanding than forty years ago.

I think it's a lot harder to make an impression on the basis of hard work nowadays, every player is working at a high physical level, they aren't the eight pints a night and a steak at half time players of the past, they're athletic freaks in many ways, many of the great players of the past wouldn't make it now because they wouldn't have had the genetic gifts required to reach the levels of fitness required.

I don't think the genetic pool gets any better. Sure, if you took a 1950s star through a time warp from his prime and dropped him into today's game, he'd be lost. But if you took that 1950s star through a time warp from his childhood and dropped him into today's training systems and culture at that age, he'd still end up a star. He'd grow up in today's ways.

 

Quote

they save themselves for quick bursts of pressure or tactical fouls when they lose it

City are the absolute masters of the tactical foul aren't they!!!

 

[Laughable Chimp]

24 minutes ago, TomC said:

 

 

Very interesting, especially since Bertie also got fouled a lot last year and hasn't played much this year. I'd be curious to see who's getting fouled.

 

Rather than just a couple of individual players being fouled a lot, it seems to be the entire team that's getting fouled a lot. Practically everyone is being fouled at a rate higher than average for their position. 

 

Edited February 20, 2022 by Laughable Chimp

[Zatman]

1 hour ago, YLN said:

Why is so much of our squad out on loan?

Targett, Trezeguet, El Ghazi, Archer, JPB, Guilbert.

Maybe not our best and brightest, but options for us off the bench that we need. The Villa bench is extremely bare at the moment. I think huge mistakes have been made here. 

All wide players too. Anwar and Trez for all the faults will take shots on target compared to some of our squad 

[ozvillafan]

Anyone else think our substitutions smack of Bruce's "throw on all the forwards" approach?