The Midfield Three

[est1874]

1 hour ago, The Fun Factory said:

McGinn has just been pointed out in the Guardian as one of the main reasons why we are having a good season. I think sometimes we can be to critical after a couple of sub par peformances.

That is the most laughable analysis the Guardian has ever tried to offer up, and their track record on football isn't great.

I would genuinely question the sanity of anyone who thinks McGinn is one of the main reasons why we're having a good season overall. At the very least, send them for an eye test.

Jesus Christ, he's a shade of the player he was before his injury last year and he doesn't even make our top 10 performers this season - even players like Targett and El Ghazi who routinely disappointed many of us last season have jumped ahead of him.

[Zhan_Zhuang]

McGinn and Barkley are our weak links and as a result we are severely handicapped every game as the opposition play right through us.

In the case of McGinn he started last season well but if you remember his form drastically plummeted way before his injury. Since then we rushed him back and he under-performed and the enforced break through Covid seemed to help him a little.

This season out all our games I can't think of too many outstanding performances, he's been non-existent since Chelsea.

We need Barkley and Mcginn out until we find a better balance.

[Vive_La_Villa]

41 minutes ago, est1874 said:

Sanson is not an attacking midfielder. Barkley has been shocking, but McGinn has been just as bad. I'd have them both out at minimum.

I don’t think McGinn has been anywhere near as bad as Barkley. He was good against Arsenal and whilst not the best game against Brighton he was quite involved still. 
 

I don’t think we need an ‘attacking midfielder’ in the 3. We need 2 box to box players that can rotate when moving forward. 

[Vive_La_Villa]

37 minutes ago, Laughable Chimp said:

I don't think our issues are down to the failings of any single player so I don't think replacing any single player with another is going to change much.

And wholesale changes will? That’s the last thing we should be doing. 

[est1874]

1 minute ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

I don’t think McGinn has been anywhere near as bad as Barkley. He was good against Arsenal and whilst not the best game against Brighton he was quite involved still. 
 

I don’t think we need an ‘attacking midfielder’ in the 3. We need 2 box to box players that can rotate when moving forward. 

He gave away possession 17 times against Brighton. That's how involved he was

He's been atrocious.

[sparrow1988]

38 minutes ago, Indigo said:

Classic VT is people with reasonable opinions on either side of a debate treating the corresponding folk as though they're all on the extreme end of it and everyone accusing each other of the same thing and calling it "classic VT".

That's just 'the world' you've described.

[Vive_La_Villa]

7 minutes ago, est1874 said:

He gave away possession 17 times against Brighton. That's how involved he was

He's been atrocious.

At least it means he had the ball at least 17 times

[Laughable Chimp]

11 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

And wholesale changes will? That’s the last thing we should be doing. 

No, I'm not advocating on wholesale changes in the playing squad either. I'm beginning to suspect teams have found us out tactically. In that case chopping and changing the midfield isn't going to mean much. The changes have to be more structural than that.

[Indigo]

15 minutes ago, sparrow1988 said:

That's just 'the world' you've described.

[GingerCollins29]

52 minutes ago, est1874 said:

That is the most laughable analysis the Guardian has ever tried to offer up, and their track record on football isn't great.

I would genuinely question the sanity of anyone who thinks McGinn is one of the main reasons why we're having a good season overall. At the very least, send them for an eye test.

Jesus Christ, he's a shade of the player he was before his injury last year and he doesn't even make our top 10 performers this season - even players like Targett and El Ghazi who routinely disappointed many of us last season have jumped ahead of him.

What a load of rubbish

[Zhan_Zhuang]

29 minutes ago, est1874 said:

He gave away possession 17 times against Brighton. That's how involved he was

He's been atrocious.

This should finally result in him being dropped, surely those checking the statistics know how costly he is?

It's not just against Brighton either it's practically every week, we are so soft in the middle it's painful to watch us not try to address it.

[Vive_La_Villa]

15 minutes ago, Laughable Chimp said:

No, I'm not advocating on wholesale changes in the playing squad either. I'm beginning to suspect teams have found us out tactically. In that case chopping and changing the midfield isn't going to mean much. The changes have to be more structural than that.

I dunno I think it’s more just a bit of bad form for the players whatever the reason rather than any fundamental approach with the shape or approach. They are struggling with the basics all over the pitch at times. I’m sure it’s just a blip. 

[Vive_La_Villa]

12 minutes ago, Zhan_Zhuang said:

This should finally result in him being dropped, surely those checking the statistics know how costly he is?

It's not just against Brighton either it's practically every week, we are so soft in the middle it's painful to watch us not try to address it.

No idea how Whoscored rate players but they have him as second best player for us with rating of 7.63.

I thought he was poor but I do think there were worse players on the pitch.

[PaulC]

1 hour ago, Zhan_Zhuang said:

McGinn and Barkley are our weak links and as a result we are severely handicapped every game as the opposition play right through us.

In the case of McGinn he started last season well but if you remember his form drastically plummeted way before his injury. Since then we rushed him back and he under-performed and the enforced break through Covid seemed to help him a little.

This season out all our games I can't think of too many outstanding performances, he's been non-existent since Chelsea.

We need Barkley and Mcginn out until we find a better balance.

Yes I think if Luiz had Nakamba alongside him we'd see a far better Luiz

[Delphinho123]

To be honest, all this talk of McGinn's injury and how he needs a rest and how we rushed him back is starting to wear thin.
Like I said in another thread, I love McGinn but at some point, we all need to accept he's an excellent Championship midfielder but a lower half Premier League midfielder. 

[PaulC]

4 minutes ago, Delphinho123 said:

To be honest, all this talk of McGinn's injury and how he needs a rest and how we rushed him back is starting to wear thin.
Like I said in another thread, I love McGinn but at some point, we all need to accept he's an excellent Championship midfielder but a lower half Premier League midfielder. 

No he has shown he can do it in the Premier League. At Arsenal he was incredible. Just needs a break!

[OutByEaster?]

For me, this is the strongest area in our squad and yet peculiarly also our biggest problem at the moment.

Personnel wise, Barkley, Luiz, McGinn, Sanson, Nakamba and Ramsey have enough talent to be working well, add in Grealish and we're well stocked.

Shape for me is key, not all of those players can play more than one role.

I think there are three shapes that we can look at:

Here's the full picture including all of the permutations that I think we'd go with if we're going to play with wingers:

LW--------No 10-----------RW

------No 8--------No 8--------

------No 6-------No 6--------

That give us a number of permutations:

The current one:

Grealish-------Barkley-------Traore

-------------------------------------------------

----------McGinn------Luiz--------------

Now for me we should struggle in two areas with that shape - firstly because that line of three players doesn't feature anyone who works hard off the ball, we really should be struggling to close out and close down defences with all three of them in there - we don't because we have the hardest working striker in football, Watkins gives us cover for some of the work that those three won't do. 

What that shape should give us is masses of creativity, the reason you have Grealish, Barkley and Traore despite the reduced workload off the ball is that when they have the ball, all three of them are more than capable of doing great stuff with it. We're struggling to get great stuff done at the moment - for me, part of that is because of how isolated they are from the rest of midfield.

The second area we struggle in is that with no number 8's in that formation, there's a big gap in the middle of the park, that results in teams breaking out from the back and running at our midfield - it's easy to get behind Grealish, Barkley and Traore and find space in front of you before you get to McGinn and Luiz. That puts two different pressures on Luiz and McGinn - the first being the mental pressure not to get too far forward, which is leaving the front line unsupported - if those two get to where they want to be in support of attacks, the hole behind them is simply too big - and they know it. The second pressure is a physical one, there's a lot of space to cover there - that I think combined with the pressure not to push on leads to both of them wanting to sit a little too deeply and invites pressure onto them and our (excellent) back four.

If I think back to a few months ago, there was a period where when we had the ball in and around the opposition box, I knew where Luiz would be - he'd be central and 10 yards outside the penalty area - he was the recycler, when we couldn't find a way through it went back to him and we started again - now he and McGinn are fifteen yards deeper, covering for any breaks by the opposition recycling has become much more difficult.

The full backs help out and give us the potential for overloads down the wings, but at the moment teams are able to put extra men out there knowing that they have McGinn and Luiz pinned back into areas where they can't hurt them, so they can make sacrifices in the centre.

I don't think it's working.

Here are a couple of other options:

Grealish-----------------------------Traore

--------------McGinn---Sanson-----------

------------------------Luiz----------------------

That one for me gives us more flexibility and more space - all three of those midfielders can do a bit of everything and can interchange, we can push the fullbacks on but still maintain a threat in the middle and both McGinn and Sanson would keep the ability to get forward into the box. Luiz would have less support but would be better protected with players in front of him. This is the one I'd like to see us try - however, I've not seen that much of Sanson and it might be that this works better:

Grealish-----------------------------Traore

--------------------McGinn--------------------

---------Sanson-----------Luiz--------------

Which gives Luiz more support but still with some protection and allows McGinn a freedom to get forward and play in the more advanced role that we've seen him succeed in before. These two formations are pretty much interchangeable with those players all being able to play in both of those lines.

Again, if Sanson isn't ready, then this would work too:

Grealish-----------------------------Traore

--------------------McGinn--------------------

---------Nakamba-------Luiz--------------

With Luiz having the freedom to get forward and join McGinn and Nakamba covering.

What doesn't work for me is having an empty line in those formations - by playing Barkley as high up the pitch as we are, we're abandoning the middle of the park and exposing McGinn and Luiz to runners, that role isn't the best part of either of them's game.

In terms of personnel, I think McGinn, Luiz and Sanson can all play in the No. 6 or No. 8 line, whereas Nakamba I think can only play at No. 6 and Barkley can only play at No 10. Ramsey I'm not sure about.

I think the limitations on Barkley's ability to play as a No. 8 mean he should be sacrificed to preserve our shape - there's space for him at No. 10 if we were to drop the wingers and go with two up top, but given that one of those wingers might be out best ever player I think that would be an insanity.

For me, we have to look at the McGinn, Sanson, Luiz combination - I think it addresses the balance, helps us create overloads out wide going forward, allows us to recycle when attacks break down and gives us more control of games.

 

 

[Delphinho123]

29 minutes ago, PaulC said:

No he has shown he can do it in the Premier League. At Arsenal he was incredible. Just needs a break!

Why? Why does he need a break? I keep hearing this? He had a whole week between the Arsenal and Brighton matches and Brighton was arguably his worst performance of the season!
If he needs a break, it means he isn't good enough. We're not in the business of paying people millions of pounds a year but letting them take 2/3 weeks off during the season because they 'need a rest'. 

I don't doubt he was incredible at Arsenal but playing well 1 match in 5/6 just isn't good enough and we need better if we're to push up the table. 

(Still love him though ;-))

[Laughable Chimp]

1 hour ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

No idea how Whoscored rate players but they have him as second best player for us with rating of 7.63.

I thought he was poor but I do think there were worse players on the pitch.

Yeah, I noticed that too. Found it odd how high it was at the time but didn't look too much into it then.

Let's see here. Seems like they recorded him as having 6 interceptions that game; twice more than anyone else on the pitch so it's probably that.

[Delphinho123]

34 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

For me, this is the strongest area in our squad and yet peculiarly also our biggest problem at the moment.

Personnel wise, Barkley, Luiz, McGinn, Sanson, Nakamba and Ramsey have enough talent to be working well, add in Grealish and we're well stocked.

Shape for me is key, not all of those players can play more than one role.

I think there are three shapes that we can look at:

Here's the full picture including all of the permutations that I think we'd go with if we're going to play with wingers:

LW--------No 10-----------RW

------No 8--------No 8--------

------No 6-------No 6--------

That give us a number of permutations:

The current one:

Grealish-------Barkley-------Traore

-------------------------------------------------

----------McGinn------Luiz--------------

Now for me we should struggle in two areas with that shape - firstly because that line of three players doesn't feature anyone who works hard off the ball, we really should be struggling to close out and close down defences with all three of them in there - we don't because we have the hardest working striker in football, Watkins gives us cover for some of the work that those three won't do. 

What that shape should give us is masses of creativity, the reason you have Grealish, Barkley and Traore despite the reduced workload off the ball is that when they have the ball, all three of them are more than capable of doing great stuff with it. We're struggling to get great stuff done at the moment - for me, part of that is because of how isolated they are from the rest of midfield.

The second area we struggle in is that with no number 8's in that formation, there's a big gap in the middle of the park, that results in teams breaking out from the back and running at our midfield - it's easy to get behind Grealish, Barkley and Traore and find space in front of you before you get to McGinn and Luiz. That puts two different pressures on Luiz and McGinn - the first being the mental pressure not to get too far forward, which is leaving the front line unsupported - if those two get to where they want to be in support of attacks, the hole behind them is simply too big - and they know it. The second pressure is a physical one, there's a lot of space to cover there - that I think combined with the pressure not to push on leads to both of them wanting to sit a little too deeply and invites pressure onto them and our (excellent) back four.

If I think back to a few months ago, there was a period where when we had the ball in and around the opposition box, I knew where Luiz would be - he'd be central and 10 yards outside the penalty area - he was the recycler, when we couldn't find a way through it went back to him and we started again - now he and McGinn are fifteen yards deeper, covering for any breaks by the opposition recycling has become much more difficult.

The full backs help out and give us the potential for overloads down the wings, but at the moment teams are able to put extra men out there knowing that they have McGinn and Luiz pinned back into areas where they can't hurt them, so they can make sacrifices in the centre.

I don't think it's working.

Here are a couple of other options:

Grealish-----------------------------Traore

--------------McGinn---Sanson-----------

------------------------Luiz----------------------

That one for me gives us more flexibility and more space - all three of those midfielders can do a bit of everything and can interchange, we can push the fullbacks on but still maintain a threat in the middle and both McGinn and Sanson would keep the ability to get forward into the box. Luiz would have less support but would be better protected with players in front of him. This is the one I'd like to see us try - however, I've not seen that much of Sanson and it might be that this works better:

Grealish-----------------------------Traore

--------------------McGinn--------------------

---------Sanson-----------Luiz--------------

Which gives Luiz more support but still with some protection and allows McGinn a freedom to get forward and play in the more advanced role that we've seen him succeed in before. These two formations are pretty much interchangeable with those players all being able to play in both of those lines.

Again, if Sanson isn't ready, then this would work too:

Grealish-----------------------------Traore

--------------------McGinn--------------------

---------Nakamba-------Luiz--------------

With Luiz having the freedom to get forward and join McGinn and Nakamba covering.

What doesn't work for me is having an empty line in those formations - by playing Barkley as high up the pitch as we are, we're abandoning the middle of the park and exposing McGinn and Luiz to runners, that role isn't the best part of either of them's game.

In terms of personnel, I think McGinn, Luiz and Sanson can all play in the No. 6 or No. 8 line, whereas Nakamba I think can only play at No. 6 and Barkley can only play at No 10. Ramsey I'm not sure about.

I think the limitations on Barkley's ability to play as a No. 8 mean he should be sacrificed to preserve our shape - there's space for him at No. 10 if we were to drop the wingers and go with two up top, but given that one of those wingers might be out best ever player I think that would be an insanity.

For me, we have to look at the McGinn, Sanson, Luiz combination - I think it addresses the balance, helps us create overloads out wide going forward, allows us to recycle when attacks break down and gives us more control of games.

 

 

The problem with Barkley is he doesn't really play as an 8 and at times he plays too far forward even for a 10! 
Looking back, I should have titled this thread 'The Midfield Two', because that's what it is when Barkley plays.

For me, Sandstorm comes in for Barkley next match and I'd have Ramsey on the bench ready to come on if McGinn isn't playing well.