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The Midfield Three


Delphinho123

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I do think Deano's dogged preference for a 4-2-3-1/4-3-3 with two wide men is hampering us and we need a tactical tweak to get us going again.

I would play with a diamond or 4-3-3 with inside forwards:

----------------------------- Luiz ----------------------------

SJM -------------------------------------------- Sanson

--------------------------- Ramsey -----------------------

-------------- Jack (free role) -------------------------

-------------------------------- Ollie -------------------------

Get an extra body in CM and encourage Targett and Cash (now Elmo possibly) to get further forward/provide the width. This also frees Jack up to go anywhere and makes it harder for teams like Brighton or West Ham to make a plan for him.

I don't think Smith will do this however!!

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47 minutes ago, Pissflaps said:

I had what they class as mild symptoms.I am a regular runner doing half marathons. Two months later i can't even walk quickly without being out of breath so it can do a number on people. I am not comparing my fitness levels to a professional footballer but it could still do it them too

Its a factor, teams are pressing us harder and we are making unforced errors, we need to utilise Sanson, Ramsey and Marvellous as they seem adequate enough and may have better engines just now.

Hope u get well soon mate, nothing worse then knackered pissflaps.

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I think maybe Barkley and McGinn need a little break. Both looked shot against Brighton. 

I wouldn't be adverse to giving them both a rest against Leicester and playing with a 3 of Nakamba, Sanson and Luiz. 

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1 minute ago, av1 said:

I think maybe Barkley and McGinn need a little break. Both looked shot against Brighton. 

I wouldn't be adverse to giving them both a rest against Leicester and playing with a 3 of Nakamba, Sanson and Luiz. 

Yes I'd go with that. 

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4 hours ago, Phil Silvers said:

We have no idea what impact this has had.

I know a few people who have had it mildly and all say they felt fatigue, heavy head, aching all over, drained.

If enough of our better players that make this machine tick have been affected,  then whats playing out now fits.

If all true, add 6 games in 18 days on top of this and it looks like our lads are doing brilliant.

 

Yeah I had it (mild) and although I felt fine within about 2 weeks, it affected my cardio exercise for about 2 or 3 months afterwards. Obviously I'm not a professional athlete and about 10 years older than most of our squad, but still, I'd hazard a guess that at least a couple of players in the squad are still feeling it.

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On 07/02/2021 at 03:34, Indigo said:

Even when he has played with Casemiro in midfield it's been alongside him as a DM with Coutinho in front as a 10. There's this weird insistence from some people that Dougie isn't a DM just because he isn't the type of one they want, but between anyone who saw him play prior to joining us, Smith, and the man himself everyone says otherwise.

I think its difficult to compare what goes on in a team, between Villa and the Brazil national team....they both have different functional desires, playing alongside casemiro, will be different to playing alongside McGinn.

its all about seeing jobs done or not done, before conclusions are made....if I see the opposition pouring through the midfield at will, I feel obliged to question the players whose job it is to stop them.

Douglas will have his instructions from his Brazil manager and from Dean Smith, they may not be the same......i don't much care, what he is told, it is not a case of questioning him as a player......its more about questioning whose responsibility it is for stopping us from being overrun in games.

The game is all about opinions and from the get go, managers have tinkered with systems and ideas have been regurgitated....the successful ones of the day, usually catch the eye and get read as gospel.....its simply not so.

Rinus Michels was once one of those, but the game has even moved on from him.

is Dougie a DM, only of you think he is?....is he a good DM, only if you think he is?

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39 minutes ago, TRO said:

I think its difficult to compare what goes on in a team, between Villa and the Brazil national team....they both have different functional desires, playing alongside casemiro, will be different to playing alongside McGinn.

its all about seeing jobs done or not done, before conclusions are made....if I see the opposition pouring through the midfield at will, I feel obliged to question the players whose job it is to stop them.

Douglas will have his instructions from his Brazil manager and from Dean Smith, they may not be the same......i don't much care, what he is told, it is not a case of questioning him as a player......its more about questioning whose responsibility it is for stopping us from being overrun in games.

The game is all about opinions and from the get go, managers have tinkered with systems and ideas have been regurgitated....the successful ones of the day, usually catch the eye and get read as gospel.....its simply not so.

Rinus Michels was once one of those, but the game has even moved on from him.

is Dougie a DM, only of you think he is?....is he a good DM, only if you think he is?

That's all fair, my only point re: the Brazil comparison is that there's been a small trend where people say that he doesn't play there for them to suit the argument when generally that hasn't been the case, not that the specifics of the role for that team are the same as what it would be for Villa.

Regarding your final point, he's not only a good DM if I believe him to be, I just happen to think he is and ultimately it's a matter of opinion. Whether he is one or not at all isn't though and that's my only objection as I think people are confusing that with him maybe not being the type of one they want. Considering he's generally played there for both us and other side, is seen as one by himself, his manager, past managers and the majority of people that have seen him play then I think it's more than safe to say that he is definitely a DM.

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11 hours ago, Indigo said:

That's all fair, my only point re: the Brazil comparison is that there's been a small trend where people say that he doesn't play there for them to suit the argument when generally that hasn't been the case, not that the specifics of the role for that team are the same as what it would be for Villa.

Regarding your final point, he's not only a good DM if I believe him to be, I just happen to think he is and ultimately it's a matter of opinion. Whether he is one or not at all isn't though and that's my only objection as I think people are confusing that with him maybe not being the type of one they want. Considering he's generally played there for both us and other side, is seen as one by himself, his manager, past managers and the majority of people that have seen him play then I think it's more than safe to say that he is definitely a DM.

but in parallel, Keinan Davis is seen as a striker, his manager see's him as one and he see's himself as one, the other players he plays with, see's him as one.....so what.

Many fans question the validity of that. Why?.....because he doesn't do what it says on the tin.

During a game there are many jobs that are crucial to a teams success, they have to be done with competency for a team to have ny chance of success.....it doesn't matter who they are or their personalities, or how well we think of them.....the job/task has to be done, if its not then we all need to revisit our thoughts on the player/s responsible.

Without checking, I would suspect there are more DM's in the Prem, with " the type that they want" than the type Dougie is.

If you have a team full of footballers alone, with no physical edge or natural agression, or a tendency to want to play the ball before closing down or going after the ball, its possible to end up with a soft underbelly....in such cases, it ends up with only being able to play certain teams with any confidence of getting a result.....we have seen this season despite a cracking run.....we are soft in midfield......we cannot be soft in midfield and the midfielders be playing ok, it simply doesn't stack up.

When you have Jack, Barkley and Traore, not winning the ball with any regularity......someone has to do that job.....someone has to turn the ball over in midfield in order to start attacks.....winning the ball starts attacks.....we seen it against Brighton and West Ham and Burnley, where we lost midfield....Brighton probably standing out the most.

You need to understand that this is not a witch hunt on Dougie or a down grading of him....He is 22 and a fine footballer, with clear on the ball skills and time to develop....the debate here is stopping the opposition from marauding through the middle of the park and threatening us.

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53 minutes ago, TRO said:

but in parallel, Keinan Davis is seen as a striker, his manager see's him as one and he see's himself as one, the other players he plays with, see's him as one.....so what.

Many fans question the validity of that. Why?.....because he doesn't do what it says on the tin.

During a game there are many jobs that are crucial to a teams success, they have to be done with competency for a team to have ny chance of success.....it doesn't matter who they are or their personalities, or how well we think of them.....the job/task has to be done, if its not then we all need to revisit our thoughts on the player/s responsible.

Without checking, I would suspect there are more DM's in the Prem, with " the type that they want" than the type Dougie is.

If you have a team full of footballers alone, with no physical edge or natural agression, or a tendency to want to play the ball before closing down or going after the ball, its possible to end up with a soft underbelly....in such cases, it ends up with only being able to play certain teams with any confidence of getting a result.....we have seen this season despite a cracking run.....we are soft in midfield......we cannot be soft in midfield and the midfielders be playing ok, it simply doesn't stack up.

When you have Jack, Barkley and Traore, not winning the ball with any regularity......someone has to do that job.....someone has to turn the ball over in midfield in order to start attacks.....winning the ball starts attacks.....we seen it against Brighton and West Ham and Burnley, where we lost midfield....Brighton probably standing out the most.

You need to understand that this is not a witch hunt on Dougie or a down grading of him....He is 22 and a fine footballer, with clear on the ball skills and time to develop....the debate here is stopping the opposition from marauding through the middle of the park and threatening us.

Keinan Davis not being a good striker (at this level) would mean just that though, not that he isn't one at all.

That is the salient point that I was making whereas you seem to be putting forth the point that Luiz isn't necessarily displaying some of the key attributes of being a top level DM, that's fine but doesn't really speak against what I said initially which is that I've noticed that there's a trend among a small minority that say that he isn't one and outright doesn't play there for Brazil as evidence when that factually hasn't been the case.

I don't see it as a witch hunt and whilst I don't agree I can see the merit of folk saying that he may be better suited to playing further up the pitch, that's an opinion and in fairness not what I was countering in the first place. For what's it's worth I think it's the midfield balance that has seen his performances suffer slightly this season. With the caveat that of course they're different levels of player if you take latter day Pirlo for example, he would play as a DM for Italy but have work horses like De Rossi and Marchisio alongside, similarly at Juve with Marchisio and Vidal, which put less of an emphasis and reliance on the defensive abilities of a player whose primary strength in that position wasn't that, but being able to start the play from deeper and dictate the pace of the game.

I think Luiz always had that side of the game down (not to the same level but forgive that for the sake of the example) albeit still had to properly settle into the league, but really levelled up as everyone knows post-lockdown when he seemed to have come to terms with the pace of the game in the PL and was able to read it more comfortably and thus add the defensive contributions that his game was missing. This season has seen that level sort of fluctuate between that and more often than not slightly below it, I don't think it's a huge coincidence that we've started to get played through in midfield more frequently when playing with a 10 instead of two 8s, and despite my reluctance to write off Barkley as this forum by and large has a 10 who doesn't offer much in the opposite direction. It's put a lot of strain on McGinn in particular by the nature of his job but hasn't necessarily aided Luiz either.

As I said though - despite my waffling on about it anyway 😀 - I think we're talking about two different "debates" here. I don't even disagree with your point that our midfield balance is off or that Luiz can't improve as he obviously can further, just that to make this point by either saying he isn't a DM or more specifically doesn't/hasn't played there isn't a true statement.

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33 minutes ago, gwi1890 said:

Remember when Smith said “my team don’t tend to play with a no 10 and I prefer two 8’s” ?

I think Smith said somewhere that last season the 2 x 8's left us a bit exposed at the back at times, hence reverting to the 2 x DMs.

However, i wouldnt be surprised if we moved to the 10 to accommodate Barkley to some degree.

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When teams are doubling up on Jack, it's obviously planned from the start so Smith needs to get smart, see what's happening and react appropriately.

Given that none of our other players make the most of the space that this should create for them, he needs to move Jack into the middle, take Barkley off and bring on Al-Ghazi or Trez early.

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49 minutes ago, TRO said:

but in parallel, Keinan Davis is seen as a striker, his manager see's him as one and he see's himself as one, the other players he plays with, see's him as one.....so what.

Many fans question the validity of that. Why?.....because he doesn't do what it says on the tin.

During a game there are many jobs that are crucial to a teams success, they have to be done with competency for a team to have ny chance of success.....it doesn't matter who they are or their personalities, or how well we think of them.....the job/task has to be done, if its not then we all need to revisit our thoughts on the player/s responsible.

Without checking, I would suspect there are more DM's in the Prem, with " the type that they want" than the type Dougie is.

If you have a team full of footballers alone, with no physical edge or natural agression, or a tendency to want to play the ball before closing down or going after the ball, its possible to end up with a soft underbelly....in such cases, it ends up with only being able to play certain teams with any confidence of getting a result.....we have seen this season despite a cracking run.....we are soft in midfield......we cannot be soft in midfield and the midfielders be playing ok, it simply doesn't stack up.

When you have Jack, Barkley and Traore, not winning the ball with any regularity......someone has to do that job.....someone has to turn the ball over in midfield in order to start attacks.....winning the ball starts attacks.....we seen it against Brighton and West Ham and Burnley, where we lost midfield....Brighton probably standing out the most.

You need to understand that this is not a witch hunt on Dougie or a down grading of him....He is 22 and a fine footballer, with clear on the ball skills and time to develop....the debate here is stopping the opposition from marauding through the middle of the park and threatening us.

 

16 minutes ago, Indigo said:

Keinan Davis not being a good striker (at this level) would mean just that though, not that he isn't one at all.

That is the salient point that I was making whereas you seem to be putting forth the point that Luiz isn't necessarily displaying some of the key attributes of being a top level DM, that's fine but doesn't really speak against what I said initially which is that I've noticed that there's a trend among a small minority that say that he isn't one and outright doesn't play there for Brazil as evidence when that factually hasn't been the case.

I don't see it as a witch hunt and whilst I don't agree I can see the merit of folk saying that he may be better suited to playing further up the pitch, that's an opinion and in fairness not what I was countering in the first place. For what's it's worth I think it's the midfield balance that has seen his performances suffer slightly this season. With the caveat that of course they're different levels of player if you take latter day Pirlo for example, he would play as a DM for Italy but have work horses like De Rossi and Marchisio alongside, similarly at Juve with Marchisio, which put less of an emphasis and reliance on the defensive abilities of a player whose primary strength in that position wasn't that, but being able to start the play from deeper and dictate the pace of the game.

I think Luiz always had that side of the game down (not to the same level but forgive that for the sake of the example) albeit still had to properly settle into the league, but really levelled up as everyone knows post-lockdown when he seemed to have come to terms with the pace of the game in the PL and was able to read it more comfortably and thus add the defensive contributions that his game was missing. This season has seen that level sort of fluctuate between that and more often than not slightly below it, I don't think it's a huge coincidence that we've started to get played through in midfield more frequently when playing with a 10 instead of two 8s, and despite my reluctance to write off Barkley as this forum by and large has a 10 who doesn't offer much in the opposite direction. It's put a lot of strain on McGinn in particular by the nature of his job but hasn't necessarily aided Luiz either.

As I said though - despite my waffling on about it anyway 😀 - I think we're talking about two different "debates" here. I don't even disagree with your point that our midfield balance is off or that Luiz can't improve as he obviously can further, just that to make this point by either saying he isn't a DM or more specifically doesn't/hasn't played there isn't a true statement.

 

I might be going slightly off point (so apologies).

In terms of some of our players currently, i think they arent necessarily being played in their best positions. (for reasonable reasons - but still....)

Luiz - Personally i think Luiz isnt a pure (and primary) DM, my own opinion is Luiz would best suit playing the second DM role (in a 2 x DM), alongside a primary holder/unit, so he can do DM duties but also step out or do his Pirlo-esque impression. (when at his best), or as an 8 as part of a midfield 3 (8-6-8).

McGinn - He is clearly an 8, not a 6, yes he has played a 6 but i dont think its his best role, and he has played a 10 but also i dont think thats his best role......he's defo an 8 imo.

 

I think part of the issue is we are playing 2 x 6's to solidify the defence a bit more (and fitting players in to that), but also playing a 10 to some degree to accommodate Barkley.

Hopefully next season, with some good buys, we can play our players in the roles that suit them without negatively impacting the overall team.

 

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19 minutes ago, Indigo said:

Keinan Davis not being a good striker (at this level) would mean just that though, not that he isn't one at all.

That is the salient point that I was making whereas you seem to be putting forth the point that Luiz isn't necessarily displaying some of the key attributes of being a top level DM, that's fine but doesn't really speak against what I said initially which is that I've noticed that there's a trend among a small minority that say that he isn't one and outright doesn't play there for Brazil as evidence when that factually hasn't been the case.

I don't see it as a witch hunt and whilst I don't agree I can see the merit of folk saying that he may be better suited to playing further up the pitch, that's an opinion and in fairness not what I was countering in the first place. For what's it's worth I think it's the midfield balance that has seen his performances suffer slightly this season. With the caveat that of course they're different levels of player if you take latter day Pirlo for example, he would play as a DM for Italy but have work horses like De Rossi and Marchisio alongside, similarly at Juve with Marchisio, which put less of an emphasis and reliance on the defensive abilities of a player whose primary strength in that position wasn't that, but being able to start the play from deeper and dictate the pace of the game.

I think Luiz always had that side of the game down (not to the same level but forgive that for the sake of the example) albeit still had to properly settle into the league, but really levelled up as everyone knows post-lockdown when he seemed to have come to terms with the pace of the game in the PL and was able to read it more comfortably and thus add the defensive contributions that his game was missing. This season has seen that level sort of fluctuate between that and more often than not slightly below it, I don't think it's a huge coincidence that we've started to get played through in midfield more frequently when playing with a 10 instead of two 8s, and despite my reluctance to write off Barkley as this forum by and large has a 10 who doesn't offer much in the opposite direction. It's put a lot of strain on McGinn in particular by the nature of his job but hasn't necessarily aided Luiz either.

As I said though - despite my waffling on about it anyway 😀 - I think we're talking about two different "debates" here. I don't even disagree with your point that our midfield balance is off or that Luiz can't improve as he obviously can further, just that to make this point by either saying he isn't a DM or more specifically doesn't/hasn't played there isn't a true statement.

I accept your reasoning and you explain it well.

However, when someone is intent on just a few lines, they may curtail their reasoning and just say " He isn't a DM" in the wider accepted context of what a DM is deemed to look like, from their perspective.

I accept also JM's contribution has an added affect too on Luiz's Game.....but as a pair i do not see them relieving any opposition players of the ball with any regularity....what I do see often , is us retreating deep and the back four winning the ball, to give it to them, in midfield...when they do win it, it is usually deep, being chaperoned by our defence.....there is always an odd exception of course.

This wonderful game, is all about opinions and when you analyse all the teams in the league, with all the knowledge and experience of the Managers and coaches, they all have their own unique way of doing things....usually based on, what personnel they have available to them.

We have some way to go, to be the rounded team, to have a realistic chance of Europe...and my suspicion is you will see a different profile of personalities, when we acheive that.

 

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10 minutes ago, MaVilla said:

 

 

I might be going slightly off point (so apologies).

In terms of some of our players currently, i think they arent necessarily being played in their best positions. (for reasonable reasons - but still....)

Luiz - Personally i think Luiz isnt a pure (and primary) DM, my own opinion is Luiz would best suit playing the second DM role (in a 2 x DM), alongside a primary holder/unit, so he can do DM duties but also step out or do his Pirlo-esque impression. (when at his best), or as an 8 as part of a midfield 3 (8-6-8).

McGinn - He is clearly an 8, not a 6, yes he has played a 6 but i dont think its his best role, and he has played a 10 but also i dont think thats his best role......he's defo an 8 imo.

 

I think part of the issue is we are playing 2 x 6's to solidify the defence a bit more (and fitting players in to that), but also playing a 10 to some degree to accommodate Barkley.

Hopefully next season, with some good buys, we can play our players in the roles that suit them without negatively impacting the overall team.

 

I think Luiz can be equally as good when playing with two more regimented 8s when out of possession as he showed in the latter end of last season but completely agree with the basis of what you're saying. I think some of the stick McGinn has been getting is a bit harsh, I accept he's largely been off the boil (it may be controversial but I think his ceiling is probably that of a decent mid-table player anyway though) but I also think he's been the most hung out to dry by this set-up as he has the most work to do in a role which isn't his natural one, which only looks worse when the system isn't functioning well.

I still have (some) faith in Barkley coming good, he has the ability and was making it all work earlier in the season, but when he's as off the pace as he is now it's killing us on the ball and subsequently off it too as we aren't able to maintain possession and it just invites pressure upon us that the defense has dealt with admirably. At least Sanson hopefully coming up to speed gives us the opportunity to change things which I'd trust Smith to do if it becomes absolutely necessary. 

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35 minutes ago, MaVilla said:

 

 

I might be going slightly off point (so apologies).

In terms of some of our players currently, i think they arent necessarily being played in their best positions. (for reasonable reasons - but still....)

Luiz - Personally i think Luiz isnt a pure (and primary) DM, my own opinion is Luiz would best suit playing the second DM role (in a 2 x DM), alongside a primary holder/unit, so he can do DM duties but also step out or do his Pirlo-esque impression. (when at his best), or as an 8 as part of a midfield 3 (8-6-8).

McGinn - He is clearly an 8, not a 6, yes he has played a 6 but i dont think its his best role, and he has played a 10 but also i dont think thats his best role......he's defo an 8 imo.

 

I think part of the issue is we are playing 2 x 6's to solidify the defence a bit more (and fitting players in to that), but also playing a 10 to some degree to accommodate Barkley.

Hopefully next season, with some good buys, we can play our players in the roles that suit them without negatively impacting the overall team.

 

I agree fwiw....I think what we are all saying is, the balance is not right.....not right for certain teams who just want to spoil our passages of play.

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1 hour ago, gwi1890 said:

Remember when Smith said “my team don’t tend to play with a no 10 and I prefer two 8’s” ?

In this context, plus the rumours at the time, and statements re: the signing.

You start to now wonder if the Barkley loan was an alternative/backup to not signing Sanson in the summer.

Which is now a bit awkward. lol

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On 13/02/2021 at 22:18, VillaChris said:

In DS mind McGinn and Barkley are as undroppable for us as Mings and Grealish.

Unless they get injured they'll start pretty much every prem game for us.

Think Doug is only one in danger of losing his place next weekend given he didn't start v Arsenal but perhaps we might tweak our shape and perhaps take Traore out instead.

He has a thing about McGinn.....probably the same thing we had, when he WAS doing it.

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