The Midfield Three

[TRO]

9 hours ago, OutByEaster? said:

I don't think the current system rewards the hard work of McGinn and Luiz - with Barkley so far up the field, they're pinned back and forced into an awful lot of defensive work with little credit - it stymies their attacking intent.

 

but they supposed to be DM's unless,I am missing something.......isn't defensive work supposed be a part of what DM's do....its what comes first, winning the right to attack.

I think its their inability to turn the ball over with any regularity or consistency, is what stymies their attacking intent......you can't attack, without the ball.

but to be fair to them, I don't think they are DM's....they are in their natural habitat further upfield IMO....and it shows, lately.

Edited February 16, 2021 by TRO

[OutByEaster?]

4 minutes ago, TRO said:

but to be fair to them, I don't think they are DM's....they are in their natural habitat further upfield IMO....and it shows, lately.

This bit yes, particularly McGinn is by nature someone who operates further up the pitch - they're both capable of playing higher up but they can't leave at the moment because Barkley's position doesn't give them any cover. It's the balance in our midfield that's wrong, we have the personnel at the club to get it right.

 

[Lord Willard]

Problem is if DL or McGinn join the attack Barkley isn't going to cover and we are losing the late runner into the box etc.  

Unless we are dominating possession Barkley just doesn't suit our system. Against Brighton we were losing the ball far too easily and Barkley wasn't helping at all. 

We need to go back to two 8s in the middle until weve gained our confidence back which we are clearly lacking. 

[Mjvilla]

13 hours ago, TRO said:

Its doesn't matter what system you choose, its still only 10 outfield players, every system has its plus points and draw backs.

assuming the players have the talent, to be in the team, they have to work hard, win their duels and make the opposition work for everything..

Watch West ham tonight, its an exhibition of the very thing we are talking about....outside Man City, probably the best team in the league, most rounded team anyway.....they have players to cover most of the ingredients in a complete team.

Wow. Just because they match the style of play you like, have the sort of player you like and use the 3 piano players or whatever, they are the best team outside of man city??

They got completely turned over by Liverpool recently, Liverpool played through them time and time again. They went to Fulham and were very poor and got the same result as when we went to Brighton and were very poor. But they are the second best, most rounded team and we have a whole host of pitfalls. We are the same PPG as them through the course of the season so far. I just don't get it.

They have a very tough run of fixtures coming up, I want to revisit this quote toward season end. 

 

[TRO]

9 hours ago, OutByEaster? said:

This bit yes, particularly McGinn is by nature someone who operates further up the pitch - they're both capable of playing higher up but they can't leave at the moment because Barkley's position doesn't give them any cover. It's the balance in our midfield that's wrong, we have the personnel at the club to get it right.

 

I'm not as convinced as you that we have the right personnel to give us the balance that we need, but that doesn't mean, I'm right, just my opinion. ....I think we have too many samey midfielders.....I don't think the distinction between them is stark enough, to create all the options we need to play all types of teams.

We need some who are "press resistant" who can win the ball and turn the ball over, more regularly or avoid being mugged off the ball......we retreat too much, you can blame Barkley for his lack of industry and yes, I think it is a factor, but not wholly and soley IMO...other flaws, still exist over and above that.

Playing wingers, with a base 2 who are not renowned for winning the ball, is an ambitious combination....and lends itself to  a soft underbelly in the team.

I get the fact, that some will say, that the big ugly at the back( who can play by the way) playing DM, is old hat......but it doesn't matter what system or formation we play, someone has to be responsible for winning the ball in the midfield....for all the combinations and permutations, that fact will not go away......In the championship players make mistakes and give you the ball by misdirecting passes....this league is less forgiving, you have to fight for the ball...and morever the players have to be atuned to fighting for the ball.

Whether, they are a natural ball winner, whether they are physically equipped to do so, whether they have the natural instinct or not......there is a job that needs doing....and the odd foot in, or picking up a mispalced pass, is not the same thing.

I watch the games and I don't see it happen enough, i don't see the duels being won, anywhere near enough against certain types of styles......We are passive and teams with an edge are ready to exploit us.

We will all have our opinions on how the Midfield will be set up....personally, I think we have too many of the same type to make a real difference and stop Marauding opponents, pouring down on us.....only when teams play us with the same intent on playing our game, do we have respite and the space we so obviously need to show our talent.

We all pick these formations, but do we ask ourselves, who is going to win the ball? that crucial element of the game that creates attacks and denies the opposition, possession.....who's job is it?......because I see players in our team, who have a case to say, its not what I do, its not my forte, sure i will win the odd one or two, but its not my game.....my game is receiving the ball and going for the juglar.

I am hoping Dean will address this in the summer.....its not about radical change anymore, we have progressed magnificently.....its now about tweaks with the balance.

Edited February 16, 2021 by TRO

[KentVillan]

2 hours ago, Mjvilla said:

Wow. Just because they match the style of play you like, have the sort of player you like and use the 3 piano players or whatever, they are the best team outside of man city??

They got completely turned over by Liverpool recently, Liverpool played through them time and time again. They went to Fulham and were very poor and got the same result as when we went to Brighton and were very poor. But they are the second best, most rounded team and we have a whole host of pitfalls. We are the same PPG as them through the course of the season so far. I just don't get it.

They have a very tough run of fixtures coming up, I want to revisit this quote toward season end. 

 

Last season it was Sheffield Utd 

[Mjvilla]

1 minute ago, KentVillan said:

Last season it was Sheffield Utd 

Do you know what, I very nearly posted again with this. But my posts get ignored or I'm blocked so didn't bother! It was Southampton earlier this season/end of last season too!

[KentVillan]

And by the way, I do agree with @TROthat you have to earn the right to play, and that means fighting for tackles and second balls. The best teams do this across the park, from front to back. I think something is up with our collective work rate in centre mid (not just Barkley tbh), and that is leaving big gaps which makes everyone look worse.

Where I differ from TRO is I think it's more about work rate than physicality. We don't need more muscle, we just need to be tighter.

So I'd bring Sanson in, as he seems to have a great engine, looks raring to go, and hasn't been affected by the Covid outbreak afaics. Nakamba for me is just fixing one problem (defensive solidity) and creating a new one (can't pass for toffee).

[zab6359]

23 hours ago, Delphinho123 said:

It’s so true. Pathetic post really. 

I think everyone is thrilled with the season we’re having and totally behind Smith. There are however, issues with our side at present and these sarcastic posts in response to people suggesting ideas as to how we improve add nothing to the argument. 

We’re building something special and I’m totally on board with the owners and manager. Wanting to freshen things up in an area we’ve been poor in, in the last 5/6 games isn’t a crime. 

Classic VT though I’m afraid! UTV

This really is classic VT, wanting everything to be right and perfect in our second season in the PL absolutely laughable. We will have poor games this season it's unavoidable. Drop the midfield, what if that doesn't work drop Smith for dropping the midfield pretty pathetic really.

[TRO]

27 minutes ago, KentVillan said:

And by the way, I do agree with @TROthat you have to earn the right to play, and that means fighting for tackles and second balls. The best teams do this across the park, from front to back. I think something is up with our collective work rate in centre mid (not just Barkley tbh), and that is leaving big gaps which makes everyone look worse.

Where I differ from TRO is I think it's more about work rate than physicality. We don't need more muscle, we just need to be tighter.

So I'd bring Sanson in, as he seems to have a great engine, looks raring to go, and hasn't been affected by the Covid outbreak afaics. Nakamba for me is just fixing one problem (defensive solidity) and creating a new one (can't pass for toffee).

I do agree with you too....but we have had similar issues in the past, playing Hourihane and Lansbury....too lightweight.....I also think McGinn was more aggressive when he first come, I think he struggles in this league.

I think you and other folk are reading too much in to the physicality bit......I agree, its about Industry in the main, workrate and a desire to mix it and you are spot on with your fighting for tackles and second balls.

I watched West Ham Last Night.....and they had 4/5 players who not only worked their socks off, but had the physicality to make it easier for themselves.....they make challenges look legit, when we have to throw ourselves at it and look untidy and get a whistle.....When they went up for corners, like Burnley, they move you around with sheer muscle and height.....and it gives them a marked advantage.

I am not saying fill our team with Giants, but even Pep has acknowledged in the past, he had too many slight players......its the balance that is key, not one type or the other.....look how much chaos Maguire causes, when he goes up, its his frame its hard to defend against....look how Giroud is hard to stop, its not just his skill, its his stature too.

I don't want to labour the point, but I think it is still an issue, albeit Sanson, does appear to have a bit of presence.....look what we was like before Mings came in.

However, I also agree with you.....workrate and industry are key in Midfield.

Edited February 16, 2021 by TRO

[OutByEaster?]

If you compare us to Liverpool in terms of style and shape,  I think our problem becomes clearer.

Liverpool play with Thiago, Henderson and Wijnaldum behind Salah, Mane and Firmino - it's a sort of 4-3-3 with full backs joining in and Firmino dropping off to play a  deeper role.

In our current set up, Barkley plays the Firmino role.

Which is fine, but that makes Grealish our Mane and Traore our Salah which is okay - but we also play with Watkins up front.

If Liverpool were to drop Thiago from midfield and instead play Origi up top they'd be unbalanced, they'd lose control in the middle of the park, there'd be massive pressure on Henderson and Wijnaldum and the full backs would have to be more cautious - it wouldn't work - that's what we're doing.

Liverpool aren't expecting Firmino to follow runners into their own box when they're defending - they've got three midfielders for that - yet we seem to be placing that expectation on Ross Barkley.

I think if we want to keep Barkley in the Firmino role we'll need to change our shape completely and play Grealish almost as a forward - personally I don't want that.

I think by dropping Barkley and adding a midfielder we allow Luiz and McGinn to play their natural games (and @TRO I think they're both brilliant at winning the ball and moving it on - I think it's the shape that's currently forcing them to do that in areas of the pitch that are really difficult to get out of) and also allows us to get more control and cover in. I think it would make us more compact in the middle which would create space on the flanks and I think it suits the players we have.

At the moment I think we're making life harder for half of the team in order to accommodate a number ten, I think if we change that, we'll see everyone else start to look better.

 

 

[KentVillan]

3 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

If you compare us to Liverpool in terms of style and shape,  I think our problem becomes clearer.

Liverpool play with Thiago, Henderson and Wijnaldum behind Salah, Mane and Firmino - it's a sort of 4-3-3 with full backs joining in and Firmino dropping off to play a  deeper role.

In our current set up, Barkley plays the Firmino role.

Which is fine, but that makes Grealish our Mane and Traore our Salah which is okay - but we also play with Watkins up front.

If Liverpool were to drop Thiago from midfield and instead play Origi up top they'd be unbalanced, they'd lose control in the middle of the park, there'd be massive pressure on Henderson and Wijnaldum and the full backs would have to be more cautious - it wouldn't work - that's what we're doing.

Liverpool aren't expecting Firmino to follow runners into their own box when they're defending - they've got three midfielders for that - yet we seem to be placing that expectation on Ross Barkley.

I think if we want to keep Barkley in the Firmino role we'll need to change our shape completely and play Grealish almost as a forward - personally I don't want that.

I think by dropping Barkley and adding a midfielder we allow Luiz and McGinn to play their natural games (and @TRO I think they're both brilliant at winning the ball and moving it on - I think it's the shape that's currently forcing them to do that in areas of the pitch that are really difficult to get out of) and also allows us to get more control and cover in. I think it would make us more compact in the middle which would create space on the flanks and I think it suits the players we have.

At the moment I think we're making life harder for half of the team in order to accommodate a number ten, I think if we change that, we'll see everyone else start to look better.

Great post.

If we're really determined to play Barkley because of those flashes of attacking brilliance, then might have to do something like this:

-------------Martinez
--Cash---Konsa---Mings---Targett
--------------Luiz--------------
-------McGinn-----Sanson--------
--Watkins---Barkley-----Grealish

Personally I would just drop Barkley until he looks match fit. Smith's obviously trying to play him back into form, but it's costing us points at the moment.

[birdman]

I hate seeing McGinn wasted as DM where he seems out of sorts. Want to see him attacking and scoring again! 

[PaulC]

2 hours ago, KentVillan said:

Great post.

If we're really determined to play Barkley because of those flashes of attacking brilliance, then might have to do something like this:

-------------Martinez
--Cash---Konsa---Mings---Targett
--------------Luiz--------------
-------McGinn-----Sanson--------
--Watkins---Barkley-----Grealish

Personally I would just drop Barkley until he looks match fit. Smith's obviously trying to play him back into form, but it's costing us points at the moment.

Yes I dont think you can have Barkley and Traore in the same team at the moment. Thats been our biggest problem for me. The balance was better when Barkley played and we had Trez on the right. Or have Traore with the extra midfield player. 

[TRO]

5 hours ago, OutByEaster? said:

If you compare us to Liverpool in terms of style and shape,  I think our problem becomes clearer.

Liverpool play with Thiago, Henderson and Wijnaldum behind Salah, Mane and Firmino - it's a sort of 4-3-3 with full backs joining in and Firmino dropping off to play a  deeper role.

In our current set up, Barkley plays the Firmino role.

Which is fine, but that makes Grealish our Mane and Traore our Salah which is okay - but we also play with Watkins up front.

If Liverpool were to drop Thiago from midfield and instead play Origi up top they'd be unbalanced, they'd lose control in the middle of the park, there'd be massive pressure on Henderson and Wijnaldum and the full backs would have to be more cautious - it wouldn't work - that's what we're doing.

Liverpool aren't expecting Firmino to follow runners into their own box when they're defending - they've got three midfielders for that - yet we seem to be placing that expectation on Ross Barkley.

I think if we want to keep Barkley in the Firmino role we'll need to change our shape completely and play Grealish almost as a forward - personally I don't want that.

I think by dropping Barkley and adding a midfielder we allow Luiz and McGinn to play their natural games (and @TRO I think they're both brilliant at winning the ball and moving it on - I think it's the shape that's currently forcing them to do that in areas of the pitch that are really difficult to get out of) and also allows us to get more control and cover in. I think it would make us more compact in the middle which would create space on the flanks and I think it suits the players we have.

At the moment I think we're making life harder for half of the team in order to accommodate a number ten, I think if we change that, we'll see everyone else start to look better.

 

 

I just cannot agree with you about luiz and McGinn being brilliant at winning the ball....they do move it on, but invariably its the defence who win the ball after they have retreated and they simply pick it up.....that is the main issue, they simply don't win the ball enough in areas of the pitch that they should.....if they did there wouldn't be the issue, that there is.....and the retreat that they subject us to.

i don't disagree with your other points.

Edited February 16, 2021 by TRO

[Teale's 'tache]

1 minute ago, TRO said:

I just cannot agree with you about luiz and McGinn winning the ball....they do move it on, but invariably its the defence who win the ball after they have retreated and they simply pick it up.....that is the main issue, they simply don't win the ball enough in areas of the pitch that they should.....if they did there wouldn't be the issue, that there is.....and the retreat that they subject us to.

i don't disagree with your other points.

I feel a big part of the reason they retreat is because they are often outnumbered, it's easier to retreat and wait for support than it is to try and get the ball off a player that has multiple easy passing options, they'll just pass it around you and be running at the defence. Two in the middle isn't something you see very much of nowadays for good reason.

We have an imbalance that is leaving us outnumbered in the middle of the pitch and teams are taking advantage of it. I agree with many of your points, we could use a little more bite, physicality at times, but the fact remains if you are outnumbered you are going to be up against it no matter what other attributes you bring to the table.

I don't think we can afford to be playing a 10, that's not a criticism, not many teams can.

[Bazmonkey]

Agree with some the posts.

We do have too many like for like players in midfield and to add they are too limited 

We have wingers who are 'just wingers...great when we have the ball...but they won't give yiu that defensive work needed in the prem.

As for defensive two...I played CDM for years amd it's their role to stop the attacking midfielders who join the play.

Our problem is mcginn amd luiz are dropping too deep and end up marking the forward.

Recently...and if you watch the games again konza amd mings also drop to deep often marking no one.

These brings on to the second point....second balls...you have to earn them....we do struggle with this and when we do win it it just ends up falling to the oppo on the edge....why...the midfield are in the box.

We need to start defender more clever...let the back line deal with the forwards...midfield two pick the runner....the 2nd one picks the second ball so that we can attack bring in barkeley and leave grealish out the way...we don't need or want him in our box...we shoukd have enough to deal with it....if grealish who is playing leftbwing is having to come back and defend the box then someone isn't doing their job.

I've used burnley goal as an example before 8 villa players in 6 yard box when Wood scored....thats 8...and still scored.

I think the personal can do it...they just need direction from the coaching team. Watching most teams yiu can clearly see a line of defenders and a line of midfielders...we often have a line of 6...7 sitting on the 18 yard box...which when we do win it...we run in to the attacking team only to lose it.

It's fine lines but if corrected make a massive difference

[TRO]

9 minutes ago, Teale's 'tache said:

I feel a big part of the reason they retreat is because they are often outnumbered, it's easier to retreat and wait for support than it is to try and get the ball off a player that has multiple easy passing options, they'll just pass it around you and be running at the defence. Two in the middle isn't something you see very much of nowadays for good reason.

We have an imbalance that is leaving us outnumbered in the middle of the pitch and teams are taking advantage of it. I agree with many of your points, we could use a little more bite, physicality at times, but the fact remains if you are outnumbered you are going to be up against it no matter what other attributes you bring to the table.

I don't think we can afford to be playing a 10, that's not a criticism, not many teams can.

West ham play soucek and Rice, which seems to work ok.....Man U play mctominay and Fred/ Pogba.

but under our circumstances 2 is being overrun....we do need to change it.

Sanson should come in at the expense of traore or Barkley.

[Teale's 'tache]

2 minutes ago, TRO said:

West ham play soucek and Rice, which seems to work ok.....Man U play mctominay and Fred/ Pogba.

but under our circumstances 2 is being overrun....we do need to change it.

Sanson should come in at the expense of traore or Barkley.

I think Fernandes for Utd and Lingard for West Ham help out their midfielders a whole lot more than Barkley does, also we give our wingers (Grealish especially) more licence than their wingers get for obvious reasons. 2 in the middle can be done, but not by everyone.

I agree, I think Sanson for Barkley and go back to playing with two 8's will address the balance.

[TRO]

In reading all these posts it seems fairly unanimous, midfield is the problem area right now.

whether its individual players, not doing their job, or a system problem of being overloaded, is not quite so clear.

but Dean has to fix it, if we want to avoid, slipping back down the league.

The back 5 seems to be ok, in most peoples minds.....so it leaves 6 players left to get right....Ollie and Jack would be unpopular choices for omission, so by a process of elimination, or deduction, we are getting very close, to the solution.