The Midfield Three

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

2 hours ago, gwi1890 said:

He’s the deepest midfielder, he picks the ball up in the pocket between the Central Defenders, he is a DCM not necessarily a destroyer that lays the ball off to other players and holds positions but a complete package that can defend and start attacks which is important in the modern game, Pirlo, Carrick , Xabi Alonso played in a deep defensive role, we  have 2 different options at DCM in Nakamba and Luiz and we have to get out of the mind set that Luiz has to be Makelele or Gattuso to be a DCM

People are almost purposely missing the point. Nah Luiz doesn't have to be Gattuso or Makelele, but in SOME GAMES, someone has to be.

 Or they need to have different kinds of midfielders around/in front of him. Or tweak the setup.

Again this is people being defensive.

Just because I think Louis Barry would get murdered in the Premier League as a lone striker like Ollie, doesn't mean I don't rate him. ( Probably a crap example but... )

Again, obviously Deano took him out last week because he realised what is possible against certain opposition. It's why we have a Squad, different players for different opposition and systems etc .

Edited February 8, 2021 by JAMAICAN-VILLAN

[gwi1890]

19 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

People are almost purposely missing the point. Nah Luiz doesn't have to be Gattuso or Makelele, but in SOME GAMES, someone has to be.

 Or they need to have different kinds of midfielders around/in front of him. Or tweak the setup.

Again this is people being defensive.

Just because I think Louis Barry would get murdered in the Premier League as a lone striker like Ollie, doesn't mean I don't rate him.

Again, obviously Deano took him out last week because he realised what is possible against certain opposition. It's why we have a Squad, different players for different opposition and systems etc .

That was my point to be fair ,  I just think it’s ludicrous when people see him have an off game and scream “not DCM for me” he is and a good one at that, Luiz is 22 and I imagine the few mistakes he’s been making lately is due to tiredness he needed a break Nakamba came in and did a very good job and the team also worked around his limitations by picking the ball off him and making them self available in space which is polar opposite to last season where he had no options got pressed and lost the ball ,  we have 2 DCM in the squad for different situations as you say and competing for the spot.

[KentVillan]

33 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

People are almost purposely missing the point. Nah Luiz doesn't have to be Gattuso or Makelele, but in SOME GAMES, someone has to be.

 Or they need to have different kinds of midfielders around/in front of him. Or tweak the setup.

Again this is people being defensive.

Just because I think Louis Barry would get murdered in the Premier League as a lone striker like Ollie, doesn't mean I don't rate him.

Again, obviously Deano took him out last week because he realised what is possible against certain opposition. It's why we have a Squad, different players for different opposition and systems etc .

I think you're making a sensible point, but there are p̶l̶e̶n̶t̶y̶ ̶o̶f̶ some people on here who say we need to replace Luiz in our squad or play him elsewhere (e.g. Attacking Mid) because he isn't a DM.

My view is he can play lone DM in a midfield 3, or he can play "main" DM in a holding 2 (e.g. with McGinn), or in the hardest games he might need to play as the ball playing DM alongside more of a "destroyer" (like Nakamba, but hopefully a bit better).

It all depends on the game. But a lot of the criticism he gets is just nonsense, blaming him for Barkley's poor defensive work rate, which leaves him massively exposed, or claiming that he is lightweight and soft on the ball.

Edited February 8, 2021 by KentVillan

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

1 minute ago, gwi1890 said:

That was my point to be fair ,  I just think it’s ludicrous when people see him have an off game and scream “not DCM for me” he is and a good one at that, Luiz is 22 and I imagine the few mistakes he’s been making lately is due to tiredness he needed a break Nakamba came in and did a very good job and the team also worked around his limitations by picking the ball off him and making them self available in space which is polar opposite to last season where he had no options got pressed and lost the ball ,  we have 2 DCM in the squad for different situations as you say and competing for the spot.

I speed read your initial post and missed the last bit of what you said at first, apologies.

Yes agreed.

Edited February 8, 2021 by JAMAICAN-VILLAN

[TRO]

19 hours ago, KentVillan said:

You’ve given two examples of him being bullied off the ball... where he’s fouled someone!? And the Pogba one was a joke decision anyway. Come on.

He fouled him,because his challenge was lightweight and he bounced off.....you need natural strength and power to win challenges and appear in control of the challenge.....otherwise, players have to throw their bodies at it and concede fouls, it amounts to the same argument/point.

so you answer my question....what memorable moments of winning the ball or combative play, to deem me wrong ,can you come up with......do you ever see him doing a sid cowans, going after the player and coming out with the ball?

but look, its my opinion and I am not going to change my mind unless, he plays in a manner, that I have to.

I thought Nakamba, was far more robust, against Arsenal...and Dean made the right call.

Even Peter Crouch thought we defended very well and offered Praise to McGinn and Luiz, except Luiz never played......but I know what he means.

Edited February 8, 2021 by TRO

[KentVillan]

8 minutes ago, TRO said:

so you answer my question....what memorable moments of winning the ball or combative play, to deem me wrong ,can you come up with......do you ever see him doing a sid cowans, going after the player and coming out with the ball?

Plenty of examples in the video I shared - think it’s on the previous page. He is a more robust defensive player than you give him credit for, and as I keep saying, will improve in that regard for the next 5 years at least.

[TRO]

5 minutes ago, KentVillan said:

Plenty of examples in the video I shared - think it’s on the previous page. He is a more robust defensive player than you give him credit for, and as I keep saying, will improve in that regard for the next 5 years at least.

I want him to improve....I am not writing him off.

I think he was better after lockdown, last season, he was arguably our best player,then......I haven't see that Dougie Luiz this season.

I don't think Dean would have left him out, if he thought, what you are suggesting and on the evidence, he was probably right.

but hey....like I say, its just opinions....and overall, we are doing so much right.

[TRO]

20 hours ago, KentVillan said:

Not a fan of YouTube highlights videos as a way of judging a player (and the music on this one is awful) but anyone saying Douglas Luiz is lightweight surely has to say this video presents a completely different picture.

Also, as I keep saying, HE IS 22 YEARS OLD. He will develop into a more physical, more imposing, smarter player over time. There is no need to replace him. At most clubs he would still be an up and coming prospect. We are getting ahead of ourselves judging him here because he starts most games.

I do agree that we need another box-to-box player to challenge McGinn (maybe that's Sanson) and another "destroyer" DM to challenge Nakamba. I think Douglas Luiz and Ramsey will compete for the ball playing role.

Also 100% agree with others who are saying this isn't about picking a first choice midfield trio, but horses for courses - especially if we start competing in several competitions (and hopefully Europe).

now, I am not arguing with those comments....but, I have never inferred getting rid of him.....I have said many times, despite my concerns, he is a good player, just not sure yet,  is he a DM....IMO

I dont't want to see him go, just maybe redeployed, until he can do what you allude to develop more physicality......Even on his strengths and weaknesses he is listed as weak in the air........Unless a DM is world class in other attributes, aerial prowess is one of the pre requisites of a decent DM...Its the point I have been making...someone who can help cut out long balls deep in to the danger zone, among other things.

I only watched it half way through, because it told me, what I already know, he has all the attributes of an attacking midfilelder, not necessarily those of a defensive Midfielder.

I think you are confusing my observations with criticism, I am not  saying I don't like him, he has good ball skills and passing ability.....I would like to see a more defensive instinct employed in a No 6....that all my point is......I think that clip proved my point...because it was littered with offensive movement, goals and assists.....which are all great, no complaints......but not as a DM, unless you are a blessed Utility player, maybe that in his development plan.?

In the meantime...in my humble opinion our back 5 need some dedicated help.....I think they got a bit on Saturday last.

 

 

 

Edited February 8, 2021 by TRO

[Teale's 'tache]

I get it, some people want a Keane/Vieira type player, want to see someone put themselves about a bit. Luiz is not that and never will be.

Personally, I've never really thought you have to be that big or aggressive to be a good defensive midfielder, see Makelele, Deschamps, Kante, Gattuso (although he was aggressive!), Pirlo... none of them are big/tall or going to win much in the air, but they all won plenty of trophies by doing things a different way, by good positioning, by reading the game, by keeping the ball.

Luiz is a modern defensive midfielder, he turns over the ball through good positioning for interceptions, gets his body between ball and player to win free kicks, he commits tactical fouls, and generally stays on his feet, he's excellent on the ball particularly at switching the play. We have McGinn and Nakamba for aggression, that's not Luiz' game.

Nowadays it's hardly ever one player winning the ball in midfield anyway, it's all pressing and hunting in packs, keeping your shape and forcing a mistake from the opposition.

I don't think one big bruising midfielder would cure all our midfield woes, I think our problem stems more from a lack of balance and losing shape during transition, I don't see Luiz as a problem, he's just having a little dip in form which should be expected considering his age and the fact he's been excellent since project re-start until a few games ago.

Could we use a little more aggression in midfield? Maybe, against some teams. Does it have to come from Luiz? Not really.

 

[GENTLEMAN]

Do we have any inclination of what he sees himself as? A 6 or an 8?

Interesting, I remember my friend playing in Portugal/Angola. He was told that a usual progression of a midfielder in Portugal was to play the deeper role, before moving further forward. The idea being you see the pictures developing better from deep and you can utilise that experience gained when you transition further up the field. I presume this translates to Brazil?

[Laughable Chimp]

Me wanting to criticize Luiz and seeing the swarm of Villatalkers defending their boy

 

 

[gilbertoAVFC]

4 hours ago, MaVilla said:

Mr Gilberto, someone not agreeing with what you think isnt "classic Villa fan mentality", its called personal opinion.......you know......something every person is entitled to?!

In no way did i state that i didnt think Luiz & McGinn werent good or important players for us, i stated that i believed to reach the next level consistently it would likely mean some of our players would need to have the challenge of other players who may or may not take those starting positions off them........its called competition.

Personally, for however good McGinn is, i dont think he is a top 6 player, he is a very good player, he's been amazing for us, he's a top guy, great in the dressing room etc and i think he would be a very good squad player for us if we wanted to consistently challenge for top 6, but that doesnt mean i dont critically analyse players......and for me personally, McGinn isnt a top 6 starting 11 player, and if the time does ever come where he isnt in our first 11, that will mean we have a very very good midfield indeed.

But to say "omg McGinn is amazing he could never be improved upon", comes across a little....blinkered, but its your opinion, so hey ho.

I never said I thought McGinn was a top six starting XI player.

The problem is, you think we should be sacking off players off players like McGinn already, despite not being a top six club ourselves. We stayed up by the skin of our teeth, and McGinn is part of a set-up which has pushed us to the next level, and you want to just bin him off because we even have a chance of getting there.

This is exactly the "classic Villa fan mentality" I speak of. You are getting way ahead of yourself. We have also literally just bought a player who you have never seen play, who competes in McGinn's position?

Tell me who Villa can afford and attract who is better than McGinn. I'm all ears.

[PaulC]

I didn't think we played very well against Arsenal in the home game, we won because we defended very well and Arsenal were wasteful. It  was very different from the game at the emirates where Luiz and McGinn bossed the midfield. I think luiz was tired and needed a rest but still think hes the no. 1 choice but Smith needs to be more reactive in-play and if we are looking vunerable then make changes. 

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

3 hours ago, abdulaziz1 said:

Smith has an issue with changing players. Some people says that he doesn’t trust his squad. But in reality, he doesn’t even change his squad players. For example he didn’t change Nakamba even when he had a yellow. I don’t remember him changing Ramsey against Wolves (yet it was his only start). It seems he doesn’t like to change unless when he’s losing (and even then he does it carefully). He sometimes change Traore and Barkley because of their fitness level which he doesn’t seem to trust a lot. 
I think he needs to react much quicker. 

[Indigo]

2 hours ago, GENTLEMAN said:

Do we have any inclination of what he sees himself as? A 6 or an 8?

There was an interview with him around the time when he signed where he described himself as a 6, as did more or less everyone who had closely watched him previously. He spoke about seeing himself as the deepest midfielder, receiving the ball off the centre backs and building attacks etc. Plenty have hit it on the head already in here, he might not be the type of 6 some people would prefer but that doesn't mean he isn't one. He's a quality one at that with still plenty of scope to improve.

Edited February 8, 2021 by Indigo

[paul514]

14 hours ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

 

I haven't seen people write him off, simply people questioning if he is in fact, a DM, or a straight up CM.

I've said a few times I personally think he is a straight Box to Box CM.

A few have countered this by saying his stature will grow and he will get stronger in the position etc.

In the Video above, it points out that his Weakness is in Aerial duels, which is a big weakness for a DM imo.

He has the skills, shooting, range of passing etc however,

Also, even in Deanos own words he points our that Nakamba is more of a "DCM" than Luiz, in fact.

I think the debate is more about what the best balance for our midfield set up is, rather than writing Luiz off.

Kante has never been good in the air for obvious reasons it didn’t stop him from being one of the best defensive midfielders in world football.

[Kiwivillan]

7 hours ago, paul514 said:

Kante has never been good in the air for obvious reasons it didn’t stop him from being one of the best defensive midfielders in world football.

Loads of Villa fans thought Gueye was crap and they were dead wrong

[Mr_Dogg]

We don't have a midfield 3 with Barkley playing.

It's a 4231 with Barkley well pushed up, under instruction I assume or he wouldn't be playing. This puts the 2 in midfield under huge pressure, which they can just about handle and when they can't the back 4 shines. There are exceptions of course, West Ham being the most recent.

[Delphinho123]

Bumping this because it’s become a real problem. It’s our weakest area of the pitch and we need to change things. 

At the very least, Barkley needs to be dropped.

Next game id play Luiz, McGinn and Sanson. If Smiths feeling really brave, Ramsey in for McGinn too. 

A defensive midfielder like Bissouma is an absolute must in the Summer. 

[VillanousOne]

I'd play Nakamna, Luiz and Sanson