The Midfield Three

[TRO]

19 hours ago, Philosopher said:

To be honest I think Frank laid the ground work for what Chelsea are now. He brought through Mount and James  who are now lynchpins of the current side. Also gave Tammy and Tomori a chance which made 70 plus million in transfer fees, which helped them afford Lukaku. He had to deal with bringing Werner, Ziyech and Havertz into the side when they clearly were struggling to adapt to the league. Perception is often different from reality.

Timing is also important for managers and Tuchel timed it right. 

Mcginn when he plays well looks incredible as he puts himself about so much. However stray passes and overplaying are alway part of his game. I personally thinks he need to keep simple. And drill the whole midfield in short passing movement and staying compact.

I don't doubt, Frank did much development work....but the distinction in personality between, Lampard & Tuchel is clear to me.....It takes a certain kind of approach to secure the players mindset....The top managers have it.

Getting in to the minds of elite players, takes a certain type of manager and thats what Tuchel is......is it for the long haul, who knows, longevity of peak performance is debatable.

but before, they get in to their heads and instill belief, the balance of the side has to be acquired.....West Ham showed us/me what balance is.

[Philosopher]

26 minutes ago, TRO said:

I don't doubt, Frank did much development work....but the distinction in personality between, Lampard & Tuchel is clear to me.....It takes a certain kind of approach to secure the players mindset....The top managers have it.

Getting in to the minds of elite players, takes a certain type of manager and thats what Tuchel is......is it for the long haul, who knows, longevity of peak performance is debatable.

but before, they get in to their heads and instill belief, the balance of the side has to be acquired.....West Ham showed us/me what balance is.

I agree about mindset. Instilling that winning mentality, a kind of resilience and persistence. 

I think we made West ham look better than they are. 

[TRO]

24 minutes ago, Philosopher said:

I agree about mindset. Instilling that winning mentality, a kind of resilience and persistence. 

I think we made West ham look better than they are. 

I don't, I think West Ham make themselves look better, than they really are, but it depends what Better, relates to....I think many of us are blinded by vanity football and fail to appreciate the foundation of the game...(not saying you).....sure our own approach to the game may have made it easier for West Ham, I will grant you that....but we make most teams look better than they are, unless like us, they are in a dip of form.

I think there is an edge to a game of football, some fans fail to see or fail to embrace, some say its the dark arts or the ugly side, I say its essential to winning....It has been said so many times on here, but its true and you simply can't get away from it, if a team has intentions of going anywhere....."you have to win the RIGHT to play football".....All too often, we attempt to play with attacking intent, without winning the initiative first....it lasts for about 10-15 minutes, the opposition get a grip and we retreat....insufficient backbone to compete and push back.....sure there are days of exception, but by and large, that is the scenario.

The top teams are a perfect example of it.....They are not passive, we are too passive. 

Edited November 3, 2021 by TRO

[Philosopher]

1 minute ago, TRO said:

I don't, I think West Ham make themselves look better, than they really are, but it depends what Better, relates to....I think many of us are blinded by vanity football and fail to appreciate the foundation of the game...(not saying you).....sure our own approach to the game may have made it easier for West Ham, I will grant you that....but we make most teams look better than they are, unless like us, they are in a dip of form.

I think there is an edge to a game of football, some fans fail to see or fail to embrace, some say its the dark arts or the ugly side, I say its essential to winning....It has been said so many times on here, but its true and you simply can't get away from it, if a team has intentions of going anywhere....."you have to win the RIGHT to play football".....All too often, we attempt to play with attacking intent, without winning the initiative first....it lasts for about 10-15 minutes, the opposition get a grip and we retreat....insufficient backbone to compete and push back.....sure there are days of exception, but by and large, that is the scenario.

The top teams are a perfect example of it.....They are not passive, we are too passive. 

I wouldn't call it dark arts at all. It's about winning individual battles, being first to the second balls, and simply fighting for everything. We certainly haven't shown any of that in the last 2 games.

Arsenal jumped all over us and we never showed the heart to get stuck in a fight it out. And the same happened against West Ham. We came to play, they came win. 

We lost the fight against Arsenal, and never tried to fight against West Ham. This is why I say we made them look better than they are. We never made any meaningful attempts to play out from the back. We continuously gave the ball away in our own half, we never got the ball to our dangerous players in the positions where they can do damage.

We made it easy for West Ham and they duly punished us. However despite that we were still in the game until the sending off. Man City, Liverpool, Chelsea would've smashed 6 past us. Leicester would have done at least what West Ham did.

We didn't even make them fight for it. 

Going forward there is nobody in the team I particularly fear, yes Antonio and Bowen are handfuls. But no more. Their midfield is very solid, strong aerially and Soucek can finish, but that's all. They are a good, balanced, hardworking outfit that's all. 

[PaulC]

22 hours ago, Philosopher said:

To be honest I think Frank laid the ground work for what Chelsea are now

He did and hes young in terms of managerial experience. Tuchel just sorted out the defence but less adventurous in attack. But Chelsea have spent heavy in the transfer market. they should be up there

[TRO]

1 hour ago, Philosopher said:

I wouldn't call it dark arts at all. It's about winning individual battles, being first to the second balls, and simply fighting for everything. We certainly haven't shown any of that in the last 2 games.

Arsenal jumped all over us and we never showed the heart to get stuck in a fight it out. And the same happened against West Ham. We came to play, they came win. 

We lost the fight against Arsenal, and never tried to fight against West Ham. This is why I say we made them look better than they are. We never made any meaningful attempts to play out from the back. We continuously gave the ball away in our own half, we never got the ball to our dangerous players in the positions where they can do damage.

We made it easy for West Ham and they duly punished us. However despite that we were still in the game until the sending off. Man City, Liverpool, Chelsea would've smashed 6 past us. Leicester would have done at least what West Ham did.

We didn't even make them fight for it. 

Going forward there is nobody in the team I particularly fear, yes Antonio and Bowen are handfuls. But no more. Their midfield is very solid, strong aerially and Soucek can finish, but that's all. They are a good, balanced, hardworking outfit that's all. 

I don't disagree with any of that, maybe my interpretation of dark arts was misplaced, because I agree with everything you have said.

but sadly we see very rarely these kind of observations, which leaves me thinking, we don't train for it, haven't the personnel for it, or the coaches don't see it as important.

West Ham at set pieces, are dominant in the air, and we are not, so I would list that as a fear......Their midfield 2 are dominant, so I would list that as a fear too.....their front of Bowen and Antonio and when they had Linguard are given licence, to wreak havoc, by whats behind them.

The bolded bit, is not wrong, but they said that about us in 1980/81/82.....I don't believe its that easy to acquire and subsequently folk think its a given...." Hard work will beat talent, when talent doesn't work hard"....its a know fact.

You say, the midfield is very strong, strong aerially and soucek and Rice can finish, but thats all......"thats all" is a euphemism to me.

I value those things much higher than you evidently, and if they was so easy to do, why aren't we doing it?...don't tell me, we haven't got the personnel to, so whose fault is that?

I totally agree with the fight element, but it has lurked with us for some time, now.....The team mirrors the manager as Dean says..and Dean is such a nice guy?

In my opinion, you do clearly have a grip on what is fundamentally wrong, but I worry if Dean does.

 

[Philosopher]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

I don't disagree with any of that, maybe my interpretation of dark arts was misplaced, because I agree with everything you have said.

but sadly we see very rarely these kind of observations, which leaves me thinking, we don't train for it, haven't the personnel for it, or the coaches don't see it as important.

West Ham at set pieces, are dominant in the air, and we are not, so I would list that as a fear......Their midfield 2 are dominant, so I would list that as a fear too.....their front of Bowen and Antonio and when they had Linguard are given licence, to wreak havoc, by whats behind them.

The bolded bit, is not wrong, but they said that about us in 1980/81/82.....I don't believe its that easy to acquire and subsequently folk think its a given...." Hard work will beat talent, when talent doesn't work hard"....its a know fact.

You say, the midfield is very strong, strong aerially and soucek and Rice can finish, but thats all......"thats all" is a euphemism to me.

I value those things much higher than you evidently, and if they was so easy to do, why aren't we doing it?...don't tell me, we haven't got the personnel to, so whose fault is that?

I totally agree with the fight element, but it has lurked with us for some time, now.....The team mirrors the manager as Dean says..and Dean is such a nice guy?

In my opinion, you do clearly have a grip on what is fundamentally wrong, but I worry if Dean does.

 

It's not about valuing them higher or lower than you. Hard work is expected. It's what underpins everything successful teams do. I expect it. Function and balance happens when playing players in their best position and to their strengths within the team style. The players we have can work together while playing to their strengths, the manager just needs to find the recipe.

[TRO]

4 minutes ago, Philosopher said:

It's not about valuing them higher or lower than you. Hard work is expected. It's what underpins everything successful teams do. I expect it. Function and balance happens when playing players in their best position and to their strengths within the team style. The players we have can work together while playing to their strengths, the manager just needs to find the recipe.

yep and you are right to expect it.

I would hazard a guess and it is only speculation, but a more driven approach, could get more running out of them.

we have to bear in mind, we are not privvy enough to the behind the scenes.

[TRO]

My view on their best positions :

• Luiz..........no8
• Sanson....no 8
• Ramsey...no 8
• McGinn...no 8
• Young... Left Back
• Buendia.....Don't know

[OutByEaster?]

11 hours ago, TRO said:

My view on their best positions :

• Luiz..........no8
• Sanson....no 8
• Ramsey...no 8
• McGinn...no 8
• Young... Left Back
• Buendia.....Don't know

I think pretty much on positions I'd agree, I think Doug can play as a six or an eight - I'd like to see us play with two sixes though. Buendia is a winger/ support forward, he shouldn't be on the list.

The bigger problem for me is this:

• Luiz.........Good enough for a top half Premier League team
• Sanson....who knows, but apparently unsettled
• Ramsey...young and still developing, I'm undecided on him.
• McGinn...Good enough for a top half Premier League team
• Nakamba - never going to be good enough for a top half Premier League team

We play with three. I think two of what we have are good enough.

Ideally next year, I'd want to see our midfield look like this:

------------Luiz------new signing------------

---------------------McGinn----------------------

subs; new signing, Sanson/new signing.

I think we're probably three players away from good enough - £100m worth.

 

[tom_avfc]

1 minute ago, OutByEaster? said:

I think pretty much on positions I'd agree, I think Doug can play as a six or an eight - I'd like to see us play with two sixes though. Buendia is a winger/ support forward, he shouldn't be on the list.

The bigger problem for me is this:

• Luiz.........Good enough for a top half Premier League team
• Sanson....who knows, but apparently unsettled
• Ramsey...young and still developing, I'm undecided on him.
• McGinn...Good enough for a top half Premier League team
• Nakamba - never going to be good enough for a top half Premier League team

We play with three. I think two of what we have are good enough.

Ideally next year, I'd want to see our midfield look like this:

------------Luiz------new signing------------

---------------------McGinn----------------------

subs; new signing, Sanson/new signing.

I think we're probably three players away from good enough - £100m worth.

 

Agree with this although, as you say, Sanson is the big unknown in all of this. If he comes into the side and performs then we may be in a position where we have a decent midfield of Luiz, Sanson, McGInn.

If that's the case then I'd like us to be signing players that are as good or better than these so that we end up with the Watkins/Ings problem in the midfield as well. In particular a strong defensive midfielder would be a priority for me as its a position where we don't currently have a capable player and there's doubtless games where that would be a useful option. 

[PaulC]

12 hours ago, TRO said:

My view on their best positions :

• Luiz..........no8
• Sanson....no 8
• Ramsey...no 8
• McGinn...no 8
• Young... Left Back
• Buendia.....Don't know

Buendia no.10 I think but we need a no.6 and a no.8 for him to play there, not two no. 8s

[CVByrne]

12 hours ago, TRO said:

My view on their best positions :

• Luiz..........no8
• Sanson....no 8
• Ramsey...no 8
• McGinn...no 8
• Young... Left Back
• Buendia.....Don't know

Agreed and I think Buendia is a right inside forward.

[VillaChris]

3 hours ago, OutByEaster? said:

I think pretty much on positions I'd agree, I think Doug can play as a six or an eight - I'd like to see us play with two sixes though. Buendia is a winger/ support forward, he shouldn't be on the list.

The bigger problem for me is this:

• Luiz.........Good enough for a top half Premier League team
• Sanson....who knows, but apparently unsettled
• Ramsey...young and still developing, I'm undecided on him.
• McGinn...Good enough for a top half Premier League team
• Nakamba - never going to be good enough for a top half Premier League team

We play with three. I think two of what we have are good enough.

Ideally next year, I'd want to see our midfield look like this:

------------Luiz------new signing------------

---------------------McGinn----------------------

subs; new signing, Sanson/new signing.

I think we're probably three players away from good enough - £100m worth.

 

Don't see Luiz signing a new deal tbh. I think at worst they'll be europa teams in for him as Roma were linked and can see odd CL team wanting him due to his age and potential.

Next summer he'll have one year left so will be a struggle to demand 30m + which is his current value.

I get the feeling we've identified Ward Prowse as his replacement, put the feelers out for him this summer and I assume new contract has a buyout clause.

McGinn with little defensive responsibilities can play o.k as a number 10 I think, obviously when we sit him deep he can't get into the box as much and chip in with goals as he did when we were promoted.

[Vive_La_Villa]

Can someone explain the difference of a 6 and an 8 to me and why Luiz is apparently better as an 8?

[Indigo]

12 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

Can someone explain the difference of a 6 and an 8 to me and why Luiz is apparently better as an 8?

6 = where Luiz plays in a 4-3-3 (deep-lying/defensive midfielder) and 8 = where McGinn plays in a 4-3-3 (central midfielder) basically. Personally I've never understood why folk think Luiz is more suited to playing further forward as I think he lacks the dynamism to do so, more or less all his coaches have seen him predominantly as a 6, and beyond that much of his stats suggest as such but opinions and all that.

[Vive_La_Villa]

1 hour ago, Indigo said:

6 = where Luiz plays in a 4-3-3 (deep-lying/defensive midfielder) and 8 = where McGinn plays in a 4-3-3 (central midfielder) basically. Personally I've never understood why folk think Luiz is more suited to playing further forward as I think he lacks the dynamism to do so, more or less all his coaches have seen him predominantly as a 6, and beyond that much of his stats suggest as such but opinions and all that.

I agree. I think he plays fine as a 6 and it’s not an issue. Sunday showed how much we miss him.

Edited November 5, 2021 by Vive_La_Villa

[Follyfoot]

1 hour ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

I agree. I think he plays fine as a 6 and it’s an issue. Sunday showed how much we miss him.

Is he fit tonight 

[roonst83]

3 minutes ago, Follyfoot said:

Is he fit tonight 

No, Smith confirmed he's out. 

[Vive_La_Villa]

34 minutes ago, Follyfoot said:

Is he fit tonight 

Nope, massive lose.