The Midfield Three

[sne]

If he starts second guessing himself and starts letting the fans dictate how he sets up and who plays then you'd have to question him as a manager. 

If anything from the little we've seen so far Gerrard seem pretty sure of how he want's to play. It's not working particularly well atm but he sets up his team here in the same formation he did at Rangers.

Would not be overly surprised it the midfield stays the same but I'd play Sanson and drop McGinn and have him come in for 20-30 mins in the second half in a more advanced role for Buendia or Coutinho. Depending on how the game looks of course.

[OutByEaster?]

39 minutes ago, VillaParkAvenue said:

I would probably think the same, but Gerrard might have to consider the fans too. The general opinion seems to be Luiz should never wear a Villa shirt again so starting him would be a risk.

Christ, I hope he doesn't consider the fans; Mings would have been buried alive two weeks ago, Ramsey would have been sold in 2020 and Buendia would have been sent back to Norwich in October. There's a noisy minority in most cases finding a scapegoat - the job of the manager is to be a bit more sensible than that.

 

[TRO]

1 hour ago, VillaParkAvenue said:

Fans are often critical of players in the team they support. Spurs fans hate Spurs players, Juventus fans hate Juventus players and so on.

I don't hate any of our players....I never have.

but when they play poorly, it deserves to be said.

[TRO]

33 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

Christ, I hope he doesn't consider the fans; Mings would have been buried alive two weeks ago, Ramsey would have been sold in 2020 and Buendia would have been sent back to Norwich in October. There's a noisy minority in most cases finding a scapegoat - the job of the manager is to be a bit more sensible than that.

 

and we might have had a CDM by now, if they had of considered the fans.

[nick76]

11 minutes ago, TRO said:

and we might have had a CDM by now, if they had of considered the fans.

and Tammy Abraham

[tom_avfc]

1 hour ago, VillaParkAvenue said:

I would probably think the same, but Gerrard might have to consider the fans too. The general opinion seems to be Luiz should never wear a Villa shirt again so starting him would be a risk.

Also, Gerrard has been clear he sees McGinn as basically undroppable due to his ”steel”.

Is that the general opinion? Or is it just that the people who want to slate players are louder than the more rational fans.

Are you advocating a fan picked team? Where does this end? Do we arrange for a lineup poll a couple of hours before kick off and let the fans vote on who’s starting?

I’d rather let the manager get on with picking the team he thinks can win a football match and he can live with the consequences of those decisions to be honest. I’d argue that Gerrard is far more qualified to pick a starting lineup than a few fans who want to have a player to blame when we lose games of football.

[Philosopher]

2 hours ago, TRO said:

What!!!!........whats Dynamic about Dougie, in that role.

What I was saying was if Dougie is played as a DM he has to have freedom to put himself about.  Sitting is not his thing. The more attacking of 2 DM's he can do. Ask him the be the sole DM with two more offensively minded midfielders in front of him, his Defensive limitations get exposed.

[Philosopher]

37 minutes ago, TRO said:

and we might have had a CDM by now, if they had of considered the fans.

We all know they wanted a DM, but the right player wasn't attainable. We need a real high quality player for this position.

[TRO]

29 minutes ago, Philosopher said:

We all know they wanted a DM, but the right player wasn't attainable. We need a real high quality player for this position.

I agree....but I find it hard to accept, that for some time now, we have needed one.....others clubs seem to find them.

Marvellous has only just won the fans over.....we have needed one for some time....but it has been swept under the carpet.

you can go through the league from Soucek, to Ndidi, from Bissuma, to Rice or Kalvin Phillips.......Most clubs have one or even two.

I am not blaming anyone, because I don't know enough of how the club is run.....but I am merely saying, its been an issue for some time.

from the time Dougie scored that Peach against Bournemouth, I have had the opinion he is not a No6 as we know them to be, he is more an 8....He doesn't have the natural nose to play that position, he has just been deployed there, which is why I feel a bit sorry for him.....as I do McGinn, who is also no defensive midfielder.....The problem will not go away while McGinn and Luiz play in the 2.

However, I am not sure, we have any better, available, which is the main worry, for me.

Edited February 16, 2022 by TRO

[TRO]

34 minutes ago, Philosopher said:

We all know they wanted a DM, but the right player wasn't attainable. We need a real high quality player for this position.

I don't really think some in the fanbase has taken to this position, thats the vibe, i get....even Whelan and Jedinak as average as they was, was never really accepted...sure they could have been better, but the role was always in doubt with some.

 

Edited February 16, 2022 by TRO

[TRO]

40 minutes ago, Philosopher said:

What I was saying was if Dougie is played as a DM he has to have freedom to put himself about.  Sitting is not his thing. The more attacking of 2 DM's he can do. Ask him the be the sole DM with two more offensively minded midfielders in front of him, his Defensive limitations get exposed.

Nothing is stopping him.....Its not in his DNA.....He is a passive, player, who chaperons the opponent, as opposed to unsettling them, waiting for the mistake to pick up the loose ball.....for Brazil he has Casemiro to do the ugly bits.

Dougie is more a silky player, who passing skills are put to good use, when someone else wins the ball......sure someone will be able to pick out a moment, when he does win it back, but its all too rare......No marauding raider is likely to fear him, or be put of by his presence.

If we had a likely lad in the middle dominating and putting the fear of god in to opponents......Doug would be a good, sound player.

Rodri or Fernandino in the middle and Dougie would thrive.

Pep was bigging him up at one time....but he didn't come in for him, did he?

[Philosopher]

14 minutes ago, TRO said:

I agree....but I find it hard to accept, that for some time now, we have needed one.....others clubs seem to find them.

Marvellous has only just won the fans over.....we have needed one for some time....but it has been swept under the carpet.

you can go through the league from Soucek, to Ndidi, from Bissuma, to Rice or Kalvin Phillips.......Most clubs have one or even two.

I am not blaming anyone, because I don't know enough of how the club is run.....but I am merely saying, its been an issue for some time.

from the time Dougie scored that Peach against Bournemouth, I have had the opinion he is not a No6 as we know them to be, he is more an 8....He doesn't have the natural nose to play that position, he has just been deployed there, which is why I feel a bit sorry for him.....as I do McGinn, who is also no defensive midfielder.....The problem will not go away while McGinn and Luiz play in the 2.

However, I am not sure, we have any better, available, which is the main worry, for me.

Soucek is a box to box midfielder. Rice is out of our reach. Phillips turned us down when he was still a championship player. Ndidi has been at a better team (we have caught up now). Bissouma is considered more of a defensive box to box.

Man U have bags of money don't have a decent DM. Tottenham are lacking a good DM. There are actualy not that many 'quality' DM's in the league outside the top 3 clubs. You have basically named all of them.  We have to either take a risk on an unproven talent, or spunk silly money on Bissouma or Ndidi.

[TRO]

6 minutes ago, Philosopher said:

Soucek is a box to box midfielder. Rice is out of our reach. Phillips turned us down when he was still a championship player. Ndidi has been at a better team (we have caught up now). Bissouma is considered more of a defensive box to box.

Man U have bags of money don't have a decent DM. Tottenham are lacking a good DM. There are actualy not that many 'quality' DM's in the league outside the top 3 clubs. You have basically named all of them.  We have to either take a risk on an unproven talent, or spunk silly money on Bissouma or Ndidi.

Gerrard himself was in his time at Liverpool a box to box midfielder.....and attacking midfielder and later on a holding midfielder......Kante too can play multiple roles...The best can adapt.

The point is being missed here, by classifying midfielders and calling them what we all fancy.

We need players, who can stop the opposition bullying us and getting in the face of the centre backs, breaking up raids and turning the ball over to give us more control of the game, seizing the initiative to launch attacks.....we can call them whatever, we want.

buts thats what we need and right now......we haven't got that......and many of us have being saying this for some time, not 3 months.

[Philosopher]

6 minutes ago, TRO said:

Nothing is stopping him.....Its not in his DNA.....He is a passive, player, who chaperons the opponent, as opposed to unsettling them, waiting for the mistake to pick up the loose ball.....for Brazil he has Casemiro to do the ugly bits.

Dougie is more a silky player, who passing skills are put to good use, when someone else wins the ball......sure someone will be able to pick out a moment, when he does win it back, but its all too rare......No marauding raider is likely to fear him, or be put of by his presence.

If we had a likely lad in the middle dominating and putting the fear of god in to opponents......Doug would be a good, sound player.

Rodri or Fernandino in the middle and Dougie would thrive.

Pep was bigging him up at one time....but he didn't come in for him, did he?

Apart from disgreeing with the point you highlighted, you have bsically said exactly what i did.

My point is he doen't know how to play the sitting role. His instinct is to make runs, not position himself in the way. Pressing and closing down not standing off. The art of playing DM is standing off, positioning themself well, being a wall, rather than an arrow. Closing down and pressing is done rarely when the chance of a steal is high and plenty of cover is around. Reading danger and intercepting.

Dougs game (out of possession) is geared more to using his pace to close down and press. Spoiling tactics, and going where the ball is. He lacks to strength and positional sense (from a defensive point of view) to be an effective shield. He lacks the concentration and awareness to spot and track all the runs. He gets caught ball watching, because his game is about being in the action and on the ball, rather than, reading and observing and choosing when to strike. 

He likes recieving the ball in deep positions where he has time, he likes being the pivot and setting the tempo, spreading the play. So playing in a deeper suits him when we have the ball. The problem is when we don't have the ball. So he needs a partner to be the defender that he can assist when we don't have the ball.

[TRO]

6 minutes ago, Philosopher said:

Apart from disgreeing with the point you highlighted, you have bsically said exactly what i did.

My point is he doen't know how to play the sitting role. His instinct is to make runs, not position himself in the way. Pressing and closing down not standing off. The art of playing DM is standing off, positioning themself well, being a wall, rather than an arrow. Closing down and pressing is done rarely when the chance of a steal is high and plenty of cover is around. Reading danger and intercepting.

Dougs game (out of possession) is geared more to using his pace to close down and press. Spoiling tactics, and going where the ball is. He lacks to strength and positional sense (from a defensive point of view) to be an effective shield. He lacks the concentration and awareness to spot and track all the runs. He gets caught ball watching, because his game is about being in the action and on the ball, rather than, reading and observing and choosing when to strike. 

He likes recieving the ball in deep positions where he has time, he likes being the pivot and setting the tempo, spreading the play. So playing in a deeper suits him when we have the ball. The problem is when we don't have the ball. So he needs a partner to be the defender that he can assist when we don't have the ball.

you clearly, see a different Douglas Luiz to me.....some of your points, I can see.....but Doug using his pace, what pace?....closing down, he rarely wins a duel, he waits for a mistake or a loose ball.

I don't want to assassinate the guy to further my point.....so I will leave it there, if you don't mind.

 

[Philosopher]

16 minutes ago, TRO said:

you clearly, see a different Douglas Luiz to me.....some of your points, I can see.....but Doug using his pace, what pace?....closing down, he rarely wins a duel, he waits for a mistake or a loose ball.

I don't want to assassinate the guy to further my point.....so I will leave it there, if you don't mind.

 

When a player has to sit, they rarely get a chance to show their pace. It's mainly about strength, positioning, awarness and to a lesser extent reactions. On the odd occasion he was played as a CM he shown good pace. As i explained, when players sit on front of the defense, closing down isn't really part of their responsibilities. They are expected to provide a shield for the defense, if they go chasing after the players and closing down, they have to leave the space they're expected to defend. Their job is to stop ball getting past them, and then provide a link between the defense and the midfield.

Essentially the role is a passive one where the player is expect to react to threats. The best DM's read the threat and stop it before it becoming an actual problem. Doug hasn got that level of awareness.

Doug isn't cut out to sit in front of the defense that is abundently clear.

Edited February 16, 2022 by Philosopher

[TRO]

4 minutes ago, Philosopher said:

When a player has to sit, they rarely get a chance to show their pace. It's mainly about strength, positioning, awarness and to a lesser extent reactions. On the odd occasion he was played as a CM he shown good pace. As i explained, when players sit on front of the defense, closing down isn't really part of their responsibilities. They are expected to provide a shield for the defense, if they go chasing after the players and closing down, they have to leave the space they're expected to defend. Their job is to stop ball getting past them, and then provide a link between the defense and the midfield.

Doug isn't cut out to sit in front of the defense that is abundently clear.

and the emboldened bit, you think that is happening with a regularity....the second bit , providing the link, maybe.

so why are we persisting in playing him, when we clearly have defensive issues and our centre backs are crying out for protection.

If players have to vacate a place, others should cover, its part and parcel of player movement.....but you cannot simply let opposition players come raiding and stay put, just in case they decide to come by you..otherwise, you are just defending space.

My point is......someone has to challenge, and a defensive midfielder is more likely to be that player than most....standing off invites pressure.

[Philosopher]

1 minute ago, TRO said:

and the emboldened bit, you think that is happening with a regularity....the second bit , providing the link, maybe.

so why are we persisting in playing him, when we clearly have defensive issues and our centre backs are crying out for protection.

If players have to vacate a place, others should cover, its part and parcel of player movement.....but you cannot simply let opposition players come raiding and stay put, just in case they decide to come by you..otherwise, you are just defending space.

My point is......someone has to challenge, and a defensive midfielder is more likely to be that player than most....standing off invites pressure.

So you seem not to realise. If we are playing Doug as a DM he should be alongside a DM that will do the sitting, and allow him to move around the pitch a follow the play. He isn't a good lone DM or sitter. We seem to agree on that.

A DM asked to sit is a screen for the defense. They move from position only when they have a high chance of winning the ball AND hae cover, or if they have to cover for someone else. Doug is being asked to sit and screen, but his concetration and defensive awareness are simply not up to the job.

[TRO]

21 hours ago, Philosopher said:

So you seem not to realise. If we are playing Doug as a DM he should be alongside a DM that will do the sitting, and allow him to move around the pitch a follow the play. He isn't a good lone DM or sitter. We seem to agree on that.

A DM asked to sit is a screen for the defense. They move from position only when they have a high chance of winning the ball AND hae cover, or if they have to cover for someone else. Doug is being asked to sit and screen, but his concetration and defensive awareness are simply not up to the job.

If you are saying he is playing in a position, that don't suit him....I agree with you.

I don't think he will be with us after the summer, just my gut feel.

My main beef, is with tasks not being done, adequately.....not criticising players.

[VillanousOne]

I used to rate Doug but his form this season has been solidly mediocre but rarely terrible, if he doesn't want to stay then it's goodbye in the summer which is shame but feels inevitable. 

I love McGinn, his attitude, his personality his ability to use his arse to stay on the ball, but i wouldn't shed a tear if he left.

When was the last time either contributed anything in a match other than going missing or losing possession. McGinn does score some scorchers but maybe 1 goal in 20 games. Neither is good on set pieces.

There comes a point that if we are still arguing amongst ourselves on what a player offers and how good they are like we seem to on a day by day basis with these two, then there is chance they really aren't that good.

Hope I am wrong and that Gerrard gets the best out of them and team as a whole, Luiz signs a new contract and McGinn hits some more worldies. I don't want either to fail, but I am jaded by the utter mediocrity and inconsistency of our 'untouchables' in the team, leading me to believe that we need to make some hard decisions in order to actually start to improve.
 

Edited February 17, 2022 by VillanousOne