The Midfield Three

[the_eristic]

McGinn is so terribly static when we're trying to play out of the back, gives no option but to hit it down the line. He's great if you find him with space ahead of him to drive into, but he makes no effort to show for the ball and find that space himself.

Marv looking all over the place, sadly.

[villalad21]

Playing a 2 man midfield is a recipe for disaster 

[Delphinho123]

I started this topic back on February 6th and we’re no closer to fixing the problem having spent a lot of money. 

Whatever money is left needs to go on two central midfielders otherwise we’re in for a frustrating season.

[sparrow1988]

17 hours ago, Kuwabatake Sanjuro said:

Nakamba is excellent when we are up against it against stronger teams, an absolute liability in games like this. Himself and McGinn take far too much out of the ball too, can't remember any one touch passing from them today.

Excellent is a bit far. When he plays against City with their intelligent movement and incisive play, then he looks like he is playing draughts when everyone else is playing chess. He presses when he shouldn't, leaves holes for them to exploit and is actually the cause of a lot of opportunities.

[CVByrne]

I've been thinking about where we go to with this midfield which along with left back needs to be solved next summer.

I think the three combinations we need are a 1 2 a 2 1 and a 2. We need players who can operate in these formations and your choice of those players would be based on opposition.

To play a 1 2 (as we did against Newcastle) you need a player at the base who sets the tempo and takes balls from defence and who sit further back during games and don't have many touches in opposition box. The two players we have in our squad who we could play in this position are Luiz and Nakamba and the choice of which to play would be based on if we will have more or less of the ball and be under pressure more. Nakamba is at his best when we are defending a lot where his defensive output is more useful than Luiz distribution and vice versa. Both can operate in a 2 also, be it a 2 1 or a 2. They're best in a 2 1 where they have support in a double pivot with a player like McGinn.

We then have the other "all rounder" midfielders and in here we have McGinn, Sanson, Ramsey and Chukwuemeka. McGinn and Sanson would be the most all round here, they have solid defensive stats and attacking stats. While Ramsey and Chukwuemeka would be more forward thinking players. McGinn / Sanson can play in any of the midfield set ups. While Ramsey and Chukwuemeka wouldn't be suitable for playing in a 2 man central midfield at the moment. They will look to add more in terms of this all rounder. 

So what we need most is quality in these 3 groups of positions and the right balance for the game ahead. England's midfield three of Mount Rice and Phillips is a lovely balance. Liverpool when they won the title too. 

I expect Sanson to come good and alongside McGinn that's the two all rounders next summer I see not needing replacing. If Chukwuemeka has a breakthrough season and Ramsey progresses then I don't see that as an area to improve. If Ramsey doesn't progress then we may add another all rounder or more attack minded player.

It is with Luiz and Nakamba where our issue lies. We need a player who is defensively good like Nakamba but has more passing skills. Luiz is a good player in this role but he's a mid table performer in this role and if he doesn't progress he needs to be moved on or put more into back up. Nakamba is surely in his final season with us and if we got that star player for this position we would have a more balanced midfield. 

So I hope we can replace Nakamba this window, or in January. But next summer at the very least. Then there is a question over both Luiz and Ramsey, do we add another. 

[blandy]

1 hour ago, CVByrne said:

a 1 2 a 2 1 and a 2

that'll be testing!

[Delphinho123]

1 hour ago, CVByrne said:

I've been thinking about where we go to with this midfield which along with left back needs to be solved next summer.

I think the three combinations we need are a 1 2 a 2 1 and a 2. We need players who can operate in these formations and your choice of those players would be based on opposition.

To play a 1 2 (as we did against Newcastle) you need a player at the base who sets the tempo and takes balls from defence and who sit further back during games and don't have many touches in opposition box. The two players we have in our squad who we could play in this position are Luiz and Nakamba and the choice of which to play would be based on if we will have more or less of the ball and be under pressure more. Nakamba is at his best when we are defending a lot where his defensive output is more useful than Luiz distribution and vice versa. Both can operate in a 2 also, be it a 2 1 or a 2. They're best in a 2 1 where they have support in a double pivot with a player like McGinn.

We then have the other "all rounder" midfielders and in here we have McGinn, Sanson, Ramsey and Chukwuemeka. McGinn and Sanson would be the most all round here, they have solid defensive stats and attacking stats. While Ramsey and Chukwuemeka would be more forward thinking players. McGinn / Sanson can play in any of the midfield set ups. While Ramsey and Chukwuemeka wouldn't be suitable for playing in a 2 man central midfield at the moment. They will look to add more in terms of this all rounder. 

So what we need most is quality in these 3 groups of positions and the right balance for the game ahead. England's midfield three of Mount Rice and Phillips is a lovely balance. Liverpool when they won the title too. 

I expect Sanson to come good and alongside McGinn that's the two all rounders next summer I see not needing replacing. If Chukwuemeka has a breakthrough season and Ramsey progresses then I don't see that as an area to improve. If Ramsey doesn't progress then we may add another all rounder or more attack minded player.

It is with Luiz and Nakamba where our issue lies. We need a player who is defensively good like Nakamba but has more passing skills. Luiz is a good player in this role but he's a mid table performer in this role and if he doesn't progress he needs to be moved on or put more into back up. Nakamba is surely in his final season with us and if we got that star player for this position we would have a more balanced midfield. 

So I hope we can replace Nakamba this window, or in January. But next summer at the very least. Then there is a question over both Luiz and Ramsey, do we add another. 

Agree with most of this. The most important upgrade is that player that sits in the base. Luiz and Nakamba are not good enough. We’re pretty stacked in the no.8 position but again, I actually think we need better than McGinn to move forward. This position isn’t that urgent though. 

[Tom13]

Anguissa playing at Championship level is a travesty

[TomC]

18 hours ago, CVByrne said:

I've been thinking about where we go to with this midfield...[snip]

I agree with you on the big picture level: We could play 4-3-3 with a the middle 3 more of a 1-2 or a 2-1, or could play a 4-2-3-1. I disagree on some of the details about the players.

If we play a traditional 3-man midfield, I have no problem with Dougie, McGinn, and Ramsey, whether the middle is more of a 4-1-2-3 or a 4-2-1-3. Dougie distributes and defends, Ramsey distributes, McGinn defends and scores. That's a good mix of skills. Sanson can rotate in, though from what little I've seen, he's most like McGinn, i.e. defends and scores.

Two games is a short sample, but I'm pretty confident Ramsey has already progressed with the ball. His passing from deep has looked to be at least as good as Dougie's so far. The next thing to watch for is whether his defensive skills have progressed enough to play in the 2 in a 4-2-3-1 or whether he will be used only in a 4-3-3. I didn't see enough of his defending in the more advanced role last Saturday to judge whether he's progressed in that role.

Chuk is going to see more time this year but will be mostly a sub. I expect that it will at least another year before he sees big minutes. He doesn't figure much into my thinking yet (but I will be happy to be proven wrong).

I agree about Nakamba. His passing against Watford looked a little better than last year but I still don't see a future for him except maybe as a specialist substitute when you're trying to defend a late lead. What's the point of having a good ball winner if he gives it right back? Like you said, the base 1 of a 4-1-2-3 needs to distribute. He can't. If you play him it all, it has to be 4-2-1-3 or 4-2-3-1 (or 4-4-2).

My main disagreement with you and Delphinho is about Dougie. Interesting to look back at Delphinho's very first post in this thread...

 

On 06/02/2021 at 15:45, Delphinho123 said:

I thought Luiz and McGinn started the season pretty well but both have tailed off in my opinion. 

I agreed saw the same thing back then (February). They got tired. That's understandable. We frequently played 4-2-3-1, they had a lot of work to do, and they played almost every game. I wouldn't worry about Dougie based on his post-February performances. At his best, he's good enough to get us into the top 6. He's not merely a mid-table sort of player. Brazil thought enough of him to name him to their Copa America squad! He looked like he's getting back to his best against Newcastle. Keeping him fresh is going to be the problem after a long season last year and two tournaments this summer. We need Sanson healthy soon so we can rotate. Squad depth is what is going to make this year better than last.

 

[CVByrne]

Yes it's up in the air about Dougie really, he could progress and become an excellent player and one good enough for top 6 or he could continue with his form from last season which was around a good mid table level. The jury is still out and I think it really is, we might not offer him a new contract and sell him next summer or we might offer him a contract if he's showing the form we need him to. I expect by Dec/Jan Lange/Smith will have made their decision.

As for Nakamba, he is in his final year here surely and we'll find an upgrade on him with high defensive output and better distribution. That's something I'm sure Smith wanted this window but we won't be able to do (get one in and Nakamba out with a few days left). 

[TRO]

On 25/07/2021 at 09:29, Delphinho123 said:

If we genuinely want to challenge for Europe then we need to sign two more starters in our central midfield (unless Buendia plays as a 10).

That’s just the way it is. Our current team isn’t good enough in the middle of the pitch to finish higher than 8th. We finished 11th last season and a large part of that was because at no point during the campaign did Smith know his best 3 in the middle of the pitch. Every now and again we’d look ok in there and it would work but it was always an uncomfortable watch. 

I don't know the best 3 either as they are all too samey.....I think McGinn has started well, but I don't see him as a CDM or a defensive midfielder or whatever label someone wants to put on that role.

[sparrow1988]

14 hours ago, TRO said:

I don't know the best 3 either as they are all too samey.....I think McGinn has started well, but I don't see him as a CDM or a defensive midfielder or whatever label someone wants to put on that role.

Pivot?

[Delphinho123]

What is a double pivot, can people explain? Seems to be the in thing right now

[MaVilla]

5 minutes ago, Delphinho123 said:

What is a double pivot, can people explain? Seems to be the in thing right now

is that a genuine question?, dont want to try and respond if ur trying to joke!

[Delphinho123]

Just now, MaVilla said:

is that a genuine question?, dont want to try and respond if ur trying to joke!

Yeh it was. But I googled it! Anyway, we need to get ourselves one to allow Buendia to play as a 10.

[MaVilla]

59 minutes ago, Delphinho123 said:

Yeh it was. But I googled it! Anyway, we need to get ourselves one to allow Buendia to play as a 10.

On paper we have the players to play a double pivot.

However in reality i think although we do and can play it, we seem to be missing a key cog (at least thats how i feel).

I mean, we could have double pivot combinations like Nakamba/Luiz, Luiz/McGinn, McGinn/Sanson, Luiz/Sanson, Luiz/Ramsey etc etc, but as many people have mentioned on here (me included), we seem to be missing the Nakamba/Luiz/Mings hybrid in one of the double pivot roles which would then allow Luiz, McGinn, Ramsey or Sanson (for example), to really flourish in the other double pivot role.

Just my opinion of course.

Edited August 27, 2021 by MaVilla

[abdulaziz1]

Who’ll start tomorrow? if no McGinn. 
I think Luiz and Nakamba would be unexciting, although it might give Luiz some freedom to show what can he do offensively. Him and Ramsey could do sone good work offensively.  
Would like Cairney to play but I doubt that. I’d say JPB too but then we’d have Buendia as a midfielder and again we’ll be overrun. I’d start JPB instead of El Ghazi but you can’t take El Ghazi out after 2 goals and assists. I doubt Smith would’ve done even if he didn’t score those. 
Anyway, I think this game is a chance for Cairney and JPB to have more minutes before the international break. Once we have Bailey, Sanson, McGinn and Watkins back things would be more difficult. 

Anyway I think tomorrow’s game is going to be so hard. I can’t even think of beating them. That’s what 3 years in the Championship done to us. 
But things eventually changes. We haven’t beaten Newcastle for 8 years. But now they're the ones who didn’t beat us for 4-5 years. 

[AVTuco]

Comon Dean, stick 50 mill into a strong DM now. Get it done.

[TRO]

9 hours ago, Delphinho123 said:

What is a double pivot, can people explain? Seems to be the in thing right now

they call it "Rest Defence" Now....I can't keep up

What is rest defence?

Rest defence is a tactical term we use to describe the attacking team’s structure that ensures a good transition into counter-pressing and defending upon losing possession of the ball. If a team’s rest defence structure is good, it means it lends itself nicely to immediately put the opposition under pressure as soon as they recover possession. So when talking about someone’s rest defence, we actually talk about their (in)ability to attack efficiently and yet, have a structure in place for the moment the ball is taken away from them.

For that reason, rest defence tactics are essential in preventing counterattacks and fast transitions by keeping a solid defensive foundation behind the attacking force of the team. Of course, executing it is a very difficult thing to accomplish because it requires optimal spacing and space occupation so that the players who are involved in the rest defence structure can react accordingly when called upon.

Some other tactical terms we relate to rest defence are structure, compactness, movement, counterattack, counterpressing, pressing and transitions.

Examples of rest defence in football

Rest defence tactics usually involve a couple of players that will stay behind the attacking line and snuff out all and any attempts at counterattacking and transitional play. Usually, we will see midfielders positioned deeper and just ahead of the defensive line if they are deployed in that role. In a 4-2-3-1 system or any system that uses the double pivot, for example, usually it would fall on the two midfielders’ shoulders to create the team’s rest defence.

Sometimes, as is the case with some of the big and successful teams like Liverpool, their rest defence may mirror the way they press and counterpress. With the full-back usually positioned higher on the left side of the pitch, Jürgen Klopp will instruct two of his functional midfielders to stay behind the ball as his rest defence.

That way, they can immediately start the counterpress and move into the defensive phase of play as soon as the ball is lost inside the final third of the pitch. Needless to stay, optimal compactness is also key in this regard as it ensures both the pressing and the rest defence tactics can be executed properly.

Why use rest defence?

Having a good rest defence is crucial when talking about any kind of functional attacking structure. Every attack brings a dose of risk but with an effective rest

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 27, 2021 by TRO

[TRO]

On 14/08/2021 at 16:58, villalad21 said:

Playing a 2 man midfield is a recipe for disaster 

for us ,yes....but not necessarily.

If the 2 are of such high quaility, it may be successful.

The very best teams have the best players and that means they move around with an uncanny ability, to create overloads and deployment to suit the needs of the game.

It takes highly trained and intelligent players to do that.