The Midfield Three

[lexicon]

2 minutes ago, Indigo said:

I know it's an easy thing to say when it's not your neck on the line and the backlash could be huge were he to have done it and it gone wrong, but I honestly would have had him in for Nakamba last night.

I think Dean's instincts here are to protect the youngsters and you can't really blame him for that - everything I've seen from Iroegbunam points to good things, though. 

[lexicon]

2 minutes ago, TRO said:

it seems he is of a type, a bit different from the rest.....but the physical step up is huge.

sure the likes of Conor Gallagher and Saka have done it with aplomb as has livamento and a few others.....but they have to be ready for it, catch 22, I know.....but when you are 3 points from the danger zone, its a big risk and a lot of pressure for a young lad.

Yeah, no doubt - you only have to look at the youngsters on loan who have largely struggled to play 90 minute senior matches to see that gap. 

I definitely agree that it's a risk too and probably not the best move for Dean to make right now, but the kid has a lot of potential. 

[Indigo]

13 minutes ago, TRO said:

I am genuinely not trying to be argumentative....but what we was lacking on sunday, I don't think Luiz would have made much difference, sure his passing may of helped, but he would not have stopped them any more that the other players did.

but I respect your opinion.

I don't think any one player would have particularly helped us at all given how we seem to be malfunctioning in all areas of the pitch, but the sample size of this season suggests we're better with him than without him. Could be wrong but I'm not sure we've won a single game this season when he hasn't been on the pitch.

As you allude to, he would've certainly helped on the ball given none of Hause, Konsa, Targett, Nakamba or McGinn were in any way comfortable at receiving possession nor building upon it in any meaningful capacity. His defensive work has kicked on this season as well though and his general reading of play seems to be back nearing his post-lockdown level  considering he's among the very best in the league this season for interceptions per 90, as well as putting up good numbers for blocked shots and passes etc. We're losing that game last night regardless but it doesn't really negate that his absence is felt. For me anyway.

Edited November 1, 2021 by Indigo

[lexicon]

20 minutes ago, TRO said:

I am genuinely not trying to be argumentative....but what we was lacking on sunday, I don't think Luiz would have made much difference, sure his passing may of helped, but he would not have stopped them any more that the other players did.

but I respect your opinion.

What Luiz offers is a man in the right place at the right time. We'd be a lot less likely to have conceded the first two goals with someone covering the space in front of the back 2, as Luiz does, and we'd have been able to pass out the back better with a player who always shows for the ball and offers an option. 

It might not have changed the result but we'd have had a much better chance of winning the game with him in the side. 

EDIT - to add a little extra context to this, Luiz is in the 79th percentile for blocked shots for his position - he's very good at it. 

Edited November 1, 2021 by lexicon

[Tom13]

16 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

If I had to guess without context, I'd say Iroegbunam is an item from the periodic table.

First name Tim. I think I'll call him by that

[TRO]

7 minutes ago, lexicon said:

Yeah, no doubt - you only have to look at the youngsters on loan who have largely struggled to play 90 minute senior matches to see that gap. 

I definitely agree that it's a risk too and probably not the best move for Dean to make right now, but the kid has a lot of potential. 

I am in no doubt, the physical side of the game in this arduous league is grossly under estimated in some quarters....Teams like Brighton, Burnley, West Ham and even Brentford have embraced it of late....teams like Norwich, still look lightweight to me.

I am under no illusions that in isolation, muscle is not enough, we all know technical ability, still reigns supreme.....but these teams have learned the art of mixing it...I am not sure we have yet.

I do hope some of our kids are able to make the step up.

[PaulC]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

I am in no doubt, the physical side of the game in this arduous league is grossly under estimated in some quarters....Teams like Brighton, Burnley, West Ham and even Brentford have embraced it of late....teams like Norwich, still look lightweight to me.

I am under no illusions that in isolation, muscle is not enough, we all know technical ability, still reigns supreme.....but these teams have learned the art of mixing it...I am not sure we have yet.

I do hope some of our kids are able to make the step up.

Yes I think we are too easy to play against. The first two West Ham goals was an example of that. No way would they have given us that time and space.  If only we had some half as good as Declan Rice. All this talk about Luiz I'm in your camp now hes not a no.6. Lacks that physical element you talk about. 

[TRO]

4 hours ago, PaulC said:

Yes I think we are too easy to play against. The first two West Ham goals was an example of that. No way would they have given us that time and space.  If only we had some half as good as Declan Rice. All this talk about Luiz I'm in your camp now hes not a no.6. Lacks that physical element you talk about. 

The irony is Nakamba has a bit of tenacity, but his all round game, is not there....we have too many limited players.

[PaulC]

8 hours ago, TRO said:

The irony is Nakamba has a bit of tenacity, but his all round game, is not there....we have too many limited players.

Yes but he only did that when we went down to 10 men against West Ham. If he had showed that from the start it could have been a different. Smith needs to get the team motivated like Saunders used to 

[Philosopher]

If McGinn is one of them them Luiz and Ramsey have to be with him in a 6 and two 8's set up.

If we can get Sanson fit and up to speed then he could oust McGinn, McGinn is very wasteful with possession.

[MrBlack]

Pretty sure Ramsey will be out for at least a month.

Better hope Sanson is over his "illness" and is the quality player that some of us think he is and his pervious stats suggest.

If not, I worry that whatever 3 we pick against Southampton will get easily overrun. 

Might be cause to go back to a 3-5-2 for the game (shudder), as not sure Nakamba, Luiz and McGinn have the combined quality to protect a back 4 or support any level of threat without wing back support.

Edited November 2, 2021 by MrBlack

[TRO]

5 hours ago, PaulC said:

Yes but he only did that when we went down to 10 men against West Ham. If he had showed that from the start it could have been a different. Smith needs to get the team motivated like Saunders used to 

Thats the key....it is one of the flaws nice guys have.

I would hazard a guess that most of the Chelsea players, liked Frank, more than Tuchel...but they probably respect Tuchel more, because they all want to win.

 

[TRO]

5 hours ago, Philosopher said:

If McGinn is one of them them Luiz and Ramsey have to be with him in a 6 and two 8's set up.

If we can get Sanson fit and up to speed then he could oust McGinn, McGinn is very wasteful with possession.

also too easily dispossesed , when he is having a bad one.

[TRO]

21 hours ago, Tom13 said:

First name Tim. I think I'll call him by that

lets hope its not "Tiny Tim"

need some beef in that midfield.

[Philosopher]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

Thats the key....it is one of the flaws nice guys have.

I would hazard a guess that most of the Chelsea players, liked Frank, more than Tuchel...but they probably respect Tuchel more, because they all want to win.

 

To be honest I think Frank laid the ground work for what Chelsea are now. He brought through Mount and James  who are now lynchpins of the current side. Also gave Tammy and Tomori a chance which made 70 plus million in transfer fees, which helped them afford Lukaku. He had to deal with bringing Werner, Ziyech and Havertz into the side when they clearly were struggling to adapt to the league. Perception is often different from reality.

Timing is also important for managers and Tuchel timed it right. 

Mcginn when he plays well looks incredible as he puts himself about so much. However stray passes and overplaying are alway part of his game. I personally thinks he need to keep simple. And drill the whole midfield in short passing movement and staying compact.

Edited November 2, 2021 by Philosopher

[Philosopher]

On 01/11/2021 at 17:29, lexicon said:

I think Dean's instincts here are to protect the youngsters and you can't really blame him for that - everything I've seen from Iroegbunam points to good things, though. 

He looks an athlete. Quick, tall, powerful. If the technique is up to scratch too then he could become a top player.

But he plays box to box so we can't really start him if his fitness levels aren't upto scratch. If I were him I'd be doing loads of beep tests and extra runs. If he is fit enough we will have to play him.

 

Edited November 2, 2021 by Philosopher

[rbcuk]

Most of us said we needed a defensive midfielder in the summer and we didn’t go for one which was bloody stupid not to as j know we looked at ward prowse but he ain’t that type of midfielder we need, our midfield is easily our weakest position if either McGinn or Luiz is injured

[M_Afro]

Whoever is in charge in January please sort our midfield out. It’s the root cause of most of our problems at both ends of the pitch. Two carefully selected new midfielders would totally transform our team. I would even sanction the sale of Ings and McGinn if it meant we could end up with a quality and balanced midfield in their place. It’s absolutely critical!

[VillanousOne]

2 hours ago, M_Afro said:

Whoever is in charge in January please sort our midfield out. It’s the root cause of most of our problems at both ends of the pitch. Two carefully selected new midfielders would totally transform our team. I would even sanction the sale of Ings and McGinn if it meant we could end up with a quality and balanced midfield in their place. It’s absolutely critical!

This.

The midfield was poor before we lost Grealish, but at that point we had wide players who could attack at pace and cause problems, Grealish used to work well with Targett, Traore and Cash were occasionally ok together at getting us forward. Even Anwar could get a bit of space and threaten the goal no matter how limited he is.

I think the 3:5:2 with wing backs meant we didn't create space down the wings (aside from Cash) but it did free up space in the middle, where Luiz and Ramsey were coming deeper to pick up the ball. The issue with it was even when we played the ball out of midfield, Ings and Ollie haven't been on the same wavelength and there has been no wide players to create any service.

3:5:2 improved our ball retention but reduced our attacking threat, it also decimated Targett's confidence as he can't play as a wing back for toffee.

So now we are back to 4:3:3 with Bailey who has only started one match and Ramsey playing wide even though that isn't his best position and Buendia in some kind of random floating role, no one coming deep and the only outlet a hoof ball to Watkins.

But regardless of all the many issues that have helped derail our season, the fact that since we were promoted the midfield has continuously looked unbalanced, inconsistent and like that of a relegation team really concerns me.

McGinn has plenty of skill and ability and is incredibly likeable, as well as having a nuclear shot, but I remember the season we stayed up on the last day - many questioned his fitness and ability to stay 'in the game' for 90 mins, usually 50-60 minute mark he would disappear. I don't think that is the issue anymore, but players know that when he gets the ball he will use his low centre of gravity/arse to back into the player and ease them aside so he can get a run on the ball. But players just foul him or press hard and push back and win possession back easily, even if he falls over 80% of the time the ref doesn't give a foul, so rather than just pass he loses the ball countless times. In fact when he isn't surrendering possession in key areas he is usually completely missing in action, there will be a small part of the game he will be superb but that is usually undermined by the rest of his game. Having said that he has had some truly quality moments this season which though not consistent at least stand out when everyone else is so ruddy awful. But... I have no idea what position he plays.

Luiz - technically I think he is a very good player, certainly the best passer of the ball and best for positional sense. He can definitely block and read the game exceptionally well, but he doesn't win many aerial battles and has an awful tendency of fouling players in or outside the penalty area and costing us goals, but this season so far he has looked less of a liability and been far more consistent. I think he plays a sort of deep lying play maker/defensive midfielder hybrid but doesn't really do either role that strongly, I would actually prefer he played a more attacking role instead of McGinn (if that is where John is meant to be playing), first few games for us he got forward and had a few long range shots, never shoots now, has had any attacking threat beaten out of him by our dire tactics.

Ramsey - bags of energy and ability, just still learning parts of the game and will only get better. Not sure he should start every week but he has really impressed me. Why he was played wide vs West Ham I have no idea. He is good at high pressing, box to box midfield play, but lacks technical nous or positional sense but this will come the more he plays.

Nakamba - part headless chicken, part midfield enforcer, I like him but he is incredibly limited for a Premier League midfielder, he doesn't help us see out a game when subbed on either. Again I like him, but not signing a better version of him has cost us dearly. Presume he's a defensive midfielder/ball winning midfielder who can win the ball, but can't pass it.

Sanson - MIA  (or missing never in action if you prefer)- who knows if between injuries and fall outs with Dean or Mings if we will ever see him again. I hope so as we have sod all other options*.

*The old rule of thumb 'don't blood the kids when you are on a losing run' is I think a mantra Dean lives by, so starting Carney or Tim when trying to arrest dire form seems unlikely. 

Whatever I feel about Dean, the fact our midfield is such a clown show really is the a stick to beat him with, maybe not enough to get him the sack but still a good sound whack.

Edited November 2, 2021 by VillanousOne

[OutByEaster?]

It's very difficult right now and I think exposes just how bad missing out on Ward-Prowse and not having an alternative lined up was.

We play a three man midfield and in our whole squad, we have two players that are at Premier league level - Luiz and McGinn - and there are plenty who will tell you that those two aren't good enough for our ambitions. 

Nakamba isn't too far off that, Jacob Ramsey too - but they're not quite there - and it's possible that Chukwuemeka, Aaron Ramsey and Tim Iroegbanum might come through and make it - but those three are a ways off right now.

And then we have Sanson, a mystery why could be good enough but has shown no signs of being ready for Premier league football and appears to be on the naughty step and we've got Ashley Young who in fairness gives his best in an emergency - sadly his best isn't where we need to be.

To play with three over the course of a season, I think we need five - we've got two - two doesn't give us a midfield, let alone any depth or competition. 

That's how far off we are in my opinion.

If we'd bought Ward-Prowse in the summer, we'd still be at least one short, probably two. For me, a midfield of Luiz, McGinn and Ward-Prowse would have been just fine, but we'd still have been short of quality back up.

We need central midfielders who put the same levels of competition for places into our side as Watkins and Ings do in competing for the lone centre forward role.

It's a £100m problem staring us in the face and the need is so desperate that I'm not sure we can afford to ignore making some effort to correct it in January.