Formula One - 2021

[mykeyb]

3 minutes ago, StanBalaban said:

 

 

Well he doesnt straighten the wheel but he probably is late turning, was that down to cutting of Hamilton or just because of the late breaking.

[Genie]

8 minutes ago, StanBalaban said:

 

 

Doesn’t open the steering which is good, maybe an argument that he doesn’t really try too hard to hit the apex and seems quite happy drifting out wide (maybe hit the brakes to late) but still, not an awful lot in it. 

Edited November 16, 2021 by Genie

[a m ole]

7 minutes ago, mykeyb said:

Well I am sure Martin Brundle said he would still be second so infront of Bottas. Sorry I understand everyone loves a conspiracy theory but again I dont get what the FIA would get out of not punishing a drivers mistake if they thought he was at fault. Even if you summise he would have been behind Bottas I am pretty sure the Red Bull would have had the beating of him.

I’m not suggesting any conspiracy, but the 5 seconds would have been added at the end since they didn’t pit again - since Bottas finished about 3 seconds behind it would have relegated Verstappen to 3rd. That doesn’t take into account that Max likely eased off at the end of the race so it’s not guaranteed that’s what would have happened had a penalty been applied, but.

[a m ole]

17 minutes ago, StanBalaban said:

 

 

Absolutely zero intention of making that corner, it even looks like he chooses to drive off the track to sell it

[BOF]

Doesn't straighten the wheel which is the main thing he was being accused of. As to how much he turns in, that will be affected by how late he was on the brakes defending the corner. He's not going to invoke understeer or a skid by going full lock if he can avoid that. I think there's enough doubt to give the benefit there. I wasa willing to hold my hands up if the evidence was damning. I think 'the other side' should be willing to do the same now that it isn't.

It all adds to a spicy Qatar

[OutByEaster?]

Yep, I don't think there's anything wrong in the steering there - those people who understand and have access to the data on braking, acceleration and so on would be able to tell if he did something different to what he'd been ordinarily doing at that corner, but there's nothing in that onboard footage that's damning.

 

 

[Stevo985]

On the face of it he doesn't appear to be trying to hit the apex there at all, it looks like he doesn't turn until he's certain Lewis is going off the track.

But I'll accept that under braking it may not be as simple as that. There's certainly no steering into him so I can understand the lack of penalty.

[YouUnastanFren]

Yeah, it's not clear cut enough for a retroactive penalty. Very likely it was intentional but subtle enough to get away it. Cynical but solid racecraft

[Sid4ever]

Mercedes have asked for a review of the decision not to penalise Red Bull's Max Verstappen for forcing Lewis Hamilton wide in the Sao Paulo Grand Prix.

On Board Footage now available

As @BOF said, setting next weekend up nicely.

[Jimzk5]

2 hours ago, Sid4ever said:

Mercedes have asked for a review of the decision not to penalise Red Bull's Max Verstappen for forcing Lewis Hamilton wide in the Sao Paulo Grand Prix.

On Board Footage now available

As @BOF said, setting next weekend up nicely.

Whats the argument though? The footage shows he didn't turn into lewis, surprisingly so but he didn't

I mean, they can't prove in any way max intentionally missed the apex (I think he did btw) but its never going to proved, its an opinion not a fact.

 

[YouUnastanFren]

1 hour ago, Jimzk5 said:

Whats the argument though? The footage shows he didn't turn into lewis, surprisingly so but he didn't

I mean, they can't prove in any way max intentionally missed the apex (I think he did btw) but its never going to proved, its an opinion not a fact.

 

I suppose if they can show with the telemetry that VER approached, braked and turned in to this corner the same every lap except for this one it supports that it was on purpose. The shape of the corner means that maximum steering angle should be right close to the apex but VER clearly removes steering angle well before then.

Definitely not clear cut but worth it for Mercedes to make Red Bull waste energy fighting this.

[HKP90]

I’m loving it! Max clearly forced him wide, but Lewis or anyone, Senna, Prost, especially Schumacher would have done likewise. It’s shaping up to be an epic finale.

Dont write off Lewis he’s always best as an underdog.

[HKP90]

Someone asked me once why I love F1 and I answered that it’s a soap opera for guys. 
 

A somewhat crass remark to be sure, but all of the offtrack stuff is all extra sauce. I love it.

[sidcow]

I suppose the question is can Lewis take the speed advantage he had here and take the next pole and just win from the front. 

He doesn't seem to have had that speed advantage in ages. Was it just unique track and atmospheric conditions that suited his car or something else? I don't know near enough about racing to understand all that.    Certainly someone commented what a suprise he won the qualifiers with a highly illegal wing, but he still dominated completely when it was fixed. 

[BOF]

27 minutes ago, YouUnastanFren said:

I suppose if they can show with the telemetry that VER approached, braked and turned in to this corner the same every lap except for this one it supports that it was on purpose.

That's not true though. His braking point and turn in was different on this lap because he was trying to defend an overtake. On a normal lap he takes the racing line. He clearly couldn't take a racing line trying to dive deep underneath Hamilton so you can guarantee his speed would be higher which would probably necessitate going deeper into the corner and would go some way to mitigating what happened. Probably knew exactly what he was at, but will get away with it and telemetry would only prove this lap was different because circumstances.

[Jimzk5]

39 minutes ago, YouUnastanFren said:

I suppose if they can show with the telemetry that VER approached, braked and turned in to this corner the same every lap except for this one it supports that it was on purpose. The shape of the corner means that maximum steering angle should be right close to the apex but VER clearly removes steering angle well before then.

Definitely not clear cut but worth it for Mercedes to make Red Bull waste energy fighting this.

Thing is you can't prove that max deliberately breaked late to run lewis off to stop the overtake, it's my option he did, and even the most supportive verstappen fan will admit its his driving style, I'm putting my car here, if you want to crash its your decision

The problem is you can't you have a rule for one (as it appears for max) against the rest of the grid

[YouUnastanFren]

2 hours ago, BOF said:

That's not true though. His braking point and turn in was different on this lap because he was trying to defend an overtake. On a normal lap he takes the racing line. He clearly couldn't take a racing line trying to dive deep underneath Hamilton so you can guarantee his speed would be higher which would probably necessitate going deeper into the corner and would go some way to mitigating what happened. Probably knew exactly what he was at, but will get away with it and telemetry would only prove this lap was different because circumstances.

The normal laps should give them his maximum late braking point and maximum apex speed.

If he's dived underneath making the corner sharper and his apex speed is still higher than usual then it's a slam dunk penalty then surely? Defending (legally) by taking the inside line means you travel less distance to the apex but necessitates braking harder and/or trail braking longer to take the corner more slowly and using your car as a roadblock to prevent the overtake.

If you're hitting an early apex from a narrow line faster than you hit the late apex on your optimum line then you can't stay on the track without braking well past the apex. If he's done that then that should be more than enough evidence to show he intentionally left the track to gain an advantage.

[OutByEaster?]

It's completely unprovable - the evidence is the circumstantial aspect based around Max pretty much always doing this - it's difficult to believe that he's done it accidentally, but it's impossible to prove that he hasn't - so it's a racing incident.

I really hope that over the final races the teams can reach some sort of balance or accord and that we get results that are defined on the track, not off it.

As it stands, that balance is a little bit wrong, there's so much effort by both sides to pick on aspects of the other car and try to get penalties imposed - the Mercedes one for this race was for me far too severe - and I have a feeling we'll see complaints, reports and recriminations galore at the next race. I think it's possible to pick fault on any F1 car and I worry that the championship will be decided by whichever team has the ear of the FIA.

I'd rather Lewis and Verstappen sort it on the track, rather than it coming down to which company quietly agrees to sponsor another racing format in order to get the ear of the rules makers and the wing of the other car forensically examined.

 

[Amsterdam_Neil_D]

8 hours ago, YouUnastanFren said:

then it's a slam dunk penalty then surely?

It should be. 

If they don't then Lewis can do it to Verstappen in the next race without fear of penalty ? 

[HKP90]

13 hours ago, YouUnastanFren said:

I suppose if they can show with the telemetry that VER approached, braked and turned in to this corner the same every lap except for this one it supports that it was on purpose. The shape of the corner means that maximum steering angle should be right close to the apex but VER clearly removes steering angle well before then.

Definitely not clear cut but worth it for Mercedes to make Red Bull waste energy fighting this.

In fairness though, if he's aggressively defending his position, his telemetry might not be the same as a regular uncontested lap. 

I still think it was deliberate, but for me it should be left there and move onto the next one. If the barriers were close then it's potentially dangerous, but there is a large runoff area there that they both used. 

Let's let them race- I'm kind of neutral to 60-40 Hamilton supporter, but whoever wins this has been a great season, and the climax could be incredible. 

For some reason it's been so much better than when Lewis was fighting it out with Nico. Perhaps it's the fact that the teams hate each other?