Freedom for Tooting! And other similar nutty fringe communities

[bickster]

26 minutes ago, Jareth said:

the UK is an English concept. 

Yeah about that... King James VI of Scotland might want to explain something to you

[Jareth]

1 hour ago, bickster said:

Yeah about that... King James VI of Scotland might want to explain something to you

You mean the heir to the English throne? 

[bickster]

8 minutes ago, Jareth said:

You mean the heir to the English throne? 

… that was already the King of Scotland.

The King of Scotland that later became the King of England and upon becoming the King of both kingdoms first floated the idea of a Union of Scotland and England.

James VI, the son of Mary, Queen of Scots who was born in some place called Edinburgh that might just be the capital of Scotland

The idea of a Union between England and Scotland was not an English concept as you stated

[Jareth]

5 minutes ago, bickster said:

… that was already the King of Scotland.

The King of Scotland that later became the King of England and upon becoming the King of both kingdoms first floated the idea of a Union of Scotland and England.

James VI, the son of Mary, Queen of Scots who was born in some place called Edinburgh that might just be the capital of Scotland

The idea of a Union between England and Scotland was not an English concept as you stated

Neglecting to mention his English bloodline there. Also can't see the Scottish (choose your century) accepting their ancient monarchy as the rightful arbiters of their lands. 

[bickster]

1 hour ago, Jareth said:

Neglecting to mention his English bloodline there

You mean his Scottish mother and father who had claims to both the Englsish and Scottish thrones? James VI was Scottish

 

1 hour ago, Jareth said:

Also can't see the Scottish (choose your century) accepting their ancient monarchy as the rightful arbiters of their lands. 

Absolutely irrelevant as to where the concept of a Union came from.

I'm in ambivalent on Independence. If it ever happens for Wales though, my passport application will be in like a shot. But just making stuff up isn't going to help anyone win an argument

[ml1dch]

 

[Wainy316]

Wouldn't Scotland leaving the UK just be a microcosm of the UK leaving the EU?  What argument could a Remainer put forward for it being a good thing?

I say this under the assumption that just walking back into the EU would be very difficult for Scotland (objections from members with their own separatist situations).

[desensitized43]

4 minutes ago, Wainy316 said:

Wouldn't Scotland leaving the UK just be a microcosm of the UK leaving the EU?  What argument could a Remainer put forward for it being a good thing?

I say this under the assumption that just walking back into the EU would be very difficult for Scotland (objections from members with their own separatist situations).

I'd think the main argument a Scot would make would be to see the back of Tories forever. It's a pretty powerful one as well since they look increasingly like the English National Party by the day.

Their main problem is the currency issue. It was last time and they've still got no answer to it. I know what I'd do in their place, take the Euro. It works for all the other countries but it seems in Scotland, like the rest of the UK we're obsessed by having the face of an old lady on currency that most of us are increasingly carrying less and less.

[ml1dch]

8 minutes ago, Wainy316 said:

Wouldn't Scotland leaving the UK just be a microcosm of the UK leaving the EU?  What argument could a Remainer put forward for it being a good thing?

That it would be very funny to watch the sugarbags who pushed the former on the country having to make the argument you are making but in reverse.

Beyond that, not much.

[Spoony]

If I were Scottish I’d vote for independence in a heartbeat 

[chrisp65]

7 minutes ago, Wainy316 said:

Wouldn't Scotland leaving the UK just be a microcosm of the UK leaving the EU?  What argument could a Remainer put forward for it being a good thing?

I say this under the assumption that just walking back into the EU would be very difficult for Scotland (objections from members with their own separatist situations).

As a ‘remainer’ back in the day, I could see it as a good thing.

I think psychologically, being one voice of 27, you can accept a bit of democratic going along with the majority where it might be a bit more difficult when you’re stuck with one partner that numerically prevents any sort of genuine democracy.

That’s about to be underlined, when you see what tit bits of devolution have been granted by Westminster, are about to be taken back by ‘robust unionism’.

Scotland might have problems getting in to the EU, they could be black balled by any country that doesn’t want their colony getting upstart ideas, Spain being the obvious example. But better to be ‘out’ with a chance of getting in. If they even decide they want to be in. That’s really for a later stage. Independence first, then decide where you want to go with it. Don’t let the detail stifle the principle.

[markavfc40]

I'd imagine this desire for independence increases every time us English inflict a Tory government on them. The fact we have inflicted a Johnson led Tory government on them, and the subsequent 3 year (4 year by time of this vote) shit show, could well be enough to see a majority now vote for independence.

 

Edited June 28, 2022 by markavfc40

[Davkaus]

The "sovereignty" argument kind of holds up for the scots in a way that it didn't really for the UK in Brexit. We had a big say in all EU rules, held a veto, and could get our way - any "red tape" we were bound by, we agreed to be bound by, and there was a limited scope that the EU had a say on - again, which couldn't expand without our consent

Scotland on the other hand, has some devolution, but pretty much just gets told what they have to do by a government that they have effectively no say in.

[CVByrne]

41 minutes ago, Wainy316 said:

Wouldn't Scotland leaving the UK just be a microcosm of the UK leaving the EU?  What argument could a Remainer put forward for it being a good thing?

I say this under the assumption that just walking back into the EU would be very difficult for Scotland (objections from members with their own separatist situations).

It would be a disaster for Scotland as it would create an economic boarder between England and Scotland. It's just a political tool 

[chrisp65]

1 minute ago, CVByrne said:

It would be a disaster for Scotland as it would create an economic boarder between England and Scotland. It's just a political tool 

Same as Ireland and Malta. Economic and cultural madness to leave.

62 countries have gained independence from the UK. Roughly how many have asked to come back?

[Genie]

40 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

Don’t let the detail stifle the principle

That’s the strategy that has led the UK into a disastrous Brexit.

[CVByrne]

17 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

Same as Ireland and Malta. Economic and cultural madness to leave.

62 countries have gained independence from the UK. Roughly how many have asked to come back?

It is different with Northern Ireland because the border is in the Irish Sea and there is no border between NI and Republic, so it's not an easy border in general to cross as it's the sea. Scotland couldn't get around a hard border with England if it rejoined the EU

[chrisp65]

1 hour ago, CVByrne said:

It is different with Northern Ireland because the border is in the Irish Sea and there is no border between NI and Republic, so it's not an easy border in general to cross as it's the sea. Scotland couldn't get around a hard border with England if it rejoined the EU

So, you can’t have a physical land border with another country with different economic rules? When did that rule start? Has anyone told Switzerland and Norway?

Why would it need to be a ‘hard’ border?

You’re falling for the language of the hard right brexity end of the tory party.

If countries just see the problems and the inconveniences then you’d never get a Latvia or Estonia breaking free.

There is nothing that can’t be overcome with co-operation between friends. Now, if your worry is the brexit tory arseholes that run the country wouldn’t be co-operative and friendly, well, surely that’s a good reason to leave.

[chrisp65]

1 hour ago, Genie said:

That’s the strategy that has led the UK into a disastrous Brexit.

You’re right. People should learn their place and just accept what 533 english constituencies decide is best for the 59 Scottish constituencies.

Incidentally, the plan currently is to change the number of constituencies. At the next election, there could be 10 additional English, and 2 less Scottish. 

But I’m sure Westminster would never ever use those numbers to reverse devolved law making when it doesn’t suit them (cough, currently repealing Welsh legislation)

 

Edited June 28, 2022 by chrisp65

[CVByrne]

14 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

So, you can’t have a physical land border with another country with different economic rules? When did that rule start? Has anyone told Switzerland and Norway?

Why would it need to be a ‘hard’ border?

You’re falling for the language of the hard right brexity end of the tory party.

If countries just see the problems and the inconveniences then you’d never get a Latvia or Estonia breaking free.

There is nothing that can’t be overcome with co-operation between friends. Now, if your worry is the brexit tory arseholes that run the country wouldn’t be co-operative and friendly, well, surely that’s a good reason to leave.

Of course you can, Norway is in the EEA and Switzerland is part of the EU single market, so the border is essentially open and free flowing trade. The UK is not part of the EEA or Single Market and will diverge it's regulations from the EU which is where the hard border comes from. 

So if Scotland joined the EU it would have a hard trade border between England and Scotland akin to the border between say Turkey and Greece or Poland and Ukraine as land borders between EU and another country. That is a significant factor in any decision on Scottish independence and any future independent Scotland joining the EU.

 

and as far as nothing that can't be overcome with co-operation between friends. Cold hard economic realties can't be overcome. 

Edited June 28, 2022 by CVByrne