Freedom for Tooting! And other similar nutty fringe communities

[Genie]

3 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

You’re right. People should learn their place and just accept what 533 english constituencies decide is best for the 59 Scottish constituencies.

Incidentally, the plan currently is to change the number of constituencies. At the next election, there could be 10 additional English, and 2 less Scottish. 

 

Independence might be great for Scotland and be the right thing for Scotland. But to propose sorting out the details later is madness, especially when they have they real life Brexit case study to refer to. 

[Davkaus]

There's a lot of practical lessons to be learned from the Brexit shitshow, but honestly, in principle, if I were a Scot, I'd go for it, as a fervent remainer.

You can't quite put a price on finally breaking free from the **** tories and Brexit England.

[chrisp65]

6 minutes ago, CVByrne said:

Of course you can, Norway is in the EEA and Switzerland is part of the EU single market, so the border is essentially open and free flowing trade. The UK is not part of the EEA or Single Market and will diverge it's regulations from the EU which is where the hard border comes from. 

So if Scotland joined the EU it would have a hard trade border between England and Scotland akin to the border between say Turkey and Greece or Poland and Ukraine as land borders between EU and another country. That is a significant factor in any decision on Scottish independence and any future independent Scotland joining the EU.

 

and as far as nothing that can't be overcome with co-operation between friends. Cold hard economic realties can't be overcome. 

So that’s it, others have decided Scotland’s fate outside the EU permanently tethered economically to what Westminster wants, and it’s too difficult to do anything else.

That’s the spirit that put the Great in Britain and the United in Kingdom!

 

[chrisp65]

8 minutes ago, Genie said:

Independence might be great for Scotland and be the right thing for Scotland. But to propose sorting out the details later is madness, especially when they have they real life Brexit case study to refer to. 

Look, I’m not the VT representative for the SNP.

I’m sure there will be lots of discussion around debt and currency and tax differentials. To suggest they trump whether or not people should choose autonomy is incredibly depressing. It just lacks any sense of agency or aspiration.

[chrisp65]

As an aside. BBC Radio 4 had tory peer Sir Malcolm Rifkind giving his opinions earlier. He referred to ‘little Scotland’ and he said the SNP may have a mandate for a referendum, but they don’t ‘deserve’ one. He also said the Scots voters were as anti euro as the rest of us.

I do hope we hear a lot more from Malcolm over the next 15 months.

[Davkaus]

8 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

As an aside. BBC Radio 4 had tory peer Sir Malcolm Rifkind giving his opinions earlier. He referred to ‘little Scotland’ and he said the SNP may have a mandate for a referendum, but they don’t ‘deserve’ one. He also said the Scots voters were as anti euro as the rest of us.

 

And that man was Margaret (may she burn in hell) Thatcher's secretary of state for Scotland. Seriously. 

[desensitized43]

Does anyone think that the best response from the “No” side of this referendum would be to encourage their side to stay home.

I think the SNP are hoping that the UK government will either take them to court so they can play the victim and anti Tory card or that it’s a win for them with a decent turnout.

The only way for the union side to come out of this well is if the whole legitimacy of the vote is destroyed with an SNP win with like 90% yes vote on a pathetically low turnout.

[CVByrne]

28 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

So that’s it, others have decided Scotland’s fate outside the EU permanently tethered economically to what Westminster wants, and it’s too difficult to do anything else.

That’s the spirit that put the Great in Britain and the United in Kingdom!

 

You seem WAY too worked up about this. So I assume you must be very pro independence. I'm Irish from Dublin and live in London and have no strong view on the subject either way.

All I'm saying is that they could make up any old lies during Brexit about what it would bring or do etc and get away with it. The cold hard reality is what followed. But there is no way there can be a debate about the pros/cons of Scottish independence without a clear discussion about what it would mean if Scotland were in the EU with England and Wales outside of the EU.

Topics that need to be discussed, the future of the Pound, the EU and trade. Companies that have a presence in EU and UK but their UK presence is in Scotland and would be required to relocate to England. 

The problem with the SNP is the same problem there was with large parts of the pro Brexit side. It's ideological and ideology trumps economics and reality for these single issue groups. 

[Davkaus]

14 minutes ago, desensitized43 said:

Does anyone think that the best response from the “No” side of this referendum would be to encourage their side to stay home.

I think the SNP are hoping that the UK government will either take them to court so they can play the victim and anti Tory card or that it’s a win for them with a decent turnout.

The only way for the union side to come out of this well is if the whole legitimacy of the vote is destroyed with an SNP win with like 90% yes vote on a pathetically low turnout.

It was 45-55 last time with an 85% turnout. There will be a significant turnout even if they tried to go down this route that is, frankly, conniving and shameful. 

If you think "the only way for the Union side to come out well" is to try an anti-democratic method to discredit the vote, rather than winning a fair fight, maybe it's time to accept that Scotland ought to be able to decide their own destiny. If we're so short on compelling arguments all we can try to do to persuade them to stay is attack the process and make it appear illegitimate, I can't think of a better argument for them to leave.

[chrisp65]

5 minutes ago, CVByrne said:

You seem WAY too worked up about this. So I assume you must be very pro independence. I'm Irish from Dublin and live in London and have no strong view on the subject either way.

All I'm saying is that they could make up any old lies during Brexit about what it would bring or do etc and get away with it. The cold hard reality is what followed. But there is no way there can be a debate about the pros/cons of Scottish independence without a clear discussion about what it would mean if Scotland were in the EU with England and Wales outside of the EU.

Topics that need to be discussed, the future of the Pound, the EU and trade. Companies that have a presence in EU and UK but their UK presence is in Scotland and would be required to relocate to England. 

The problem with the SNP is the same problem there was with large parts of the pro Brexit side. It's ideological and ideology trumps economics and reality for these single issue groups. 

Genuinely not worked up about it.

I find it an absolutely fascinating subject, and to a large extent a means to an end. After all, I’m not Scots and I don’t live there!

Yes, there will obviously be a million subjects to discuss, nuclear submarines, oil rigs, currency and who will be entitled to what passport.

But I really can’t see how you put the worries ahead of the basic principle. To be slightly flippant and disrespectful, I’m sure the people of Dublin weren’t overly worried about currency and import tariffs and company law back in the day.

[blandy]

3 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

62 countries have gained independence from the UK. Roughly how many have asked to come back?

If I was living in Scotland or Wales, I’d want to have independence from England. Heck I want it for the North, I mean we’re nearly Scottish, anyway.

But there are at least 2 completely different strands to it all. There’s the (for want of a better word) emotional strand, and there’s the cold hard reality strand. For those 62 odd countries, spread across the globe and nowhere near the United Britain of Great Kingdom and Iceland, it’s a different kettle of fish to places surgically attached by geographical proximity.

Also, for all that the reprehensible tories are a major driver towards Welsh and Scots wanting independence, the tories are temporary. There’s also no majority in either place who want independence.

Its great rabble rousing, though, by Sturgeon. Stir people up and know that Bunter will say no and she can blame Westminster for everything. Just a much smarter Liz Truss.

[chrisp65]

2 minutes ago, blandy said:

If I was living in Scotland or Wales, I’d want to have independence from England. Heck I want it for the North, I mean we’re nearly Scottish, anyway.

But there are at least 2 completely different strands to it all. There’s the (for want of a better word) emotional strand, and there’s the cold hard reality strand. For those 62 odd countries, spread across the globe and nowhere near the United Britain of Great Kingdom and Iceland, it’s a different kettle of fish to places surgically attached by geographical proximity.

Also, for all that the reprehensible tories are a major driver towards Welsh and Scots wanting independence, the tories are temporary. There’s also no majority in either place who want independence.

Its great rabble rousing, though, by Sturgeon. Stir people up and know that Bunter will say no and she can blame Westminster for everything. Just a much smarter Liz Truss.

 

There’s certainly no mandate for it in Wales right now, although next Saturday’s march is happening at the same time as the numbers have never been higher, now up (don’t quote me its from memory) to 24% (32% with don’t knows taken out). So it’s on a low slow trajectory. I think BBC and the tories still quote the 11% figure from a few years ago.

I think the Scottish figure is far too close to call. But personally, if I had to put head money not heart money on the result in Scotland I’d say it’s probably still 15 years away. 

The tories are temporary, though not that temporary, Labour have held power for what? 40 of the last 110 years? And it’s not like Scotland votes Labour anyway, There are currently 6 tory MP’s in Scotland, and 1 Labour (Alba Party has 2, Libs 4) So of the parties, Labour is sitting 5th in Westminster parties representing Scotland. Labour are the third biggest party in Scottish Councils. Labour are the third largest party in the Scottish Parliament,

[blandy]

3 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

The tories are temporary, though not that temporary, Labour have held power for what? 40 of the last 110 years? And it’s not like Scotland votes Labour anyway

Agreed. Then again, the SNP have been in power for ages, not because of their aim of independence for Scotland, but because they’re Labour without the stigma of Iraq, the financial crash and Corbyn. If they push too hard, they’ll break, just as the tories are breaking.

[tonyh29]

39 minutes ago, blandy said:

I’d want to have independence from England. Heck I want it for the North,

Hey get your own polices , stop stealing mine

though tbf I was proposing the border somewhere nearer Hertfordshire  / Bucks 

[chrisp65]

11 minutes ago, blandy said:

Agreed. Then again, the SNP have been in power for ages, not because of their aim of independence for Scotland, but because they’re Labour without the stigma of Iraq, the financial crash and Corbyn. If they push too hard, they’ll break, just as the tories are breaking.

 

I suspect, that as with Plaid there is quite a broad church of ideas within the SNP. I’d have to confess I don’t know too much about them. Many of the rallies and much of the literature and media campaigning will be by ‘non-political’ groups like YES Scotland, not the SNP.

My guess, the SNP would be a large party in an independent Scotland, but you’d probably see new parties too. There would definitely be a strong ‘conservative’ party, there is already the Alba party. I think the SNP would either splinter down, or lose votes post independence to others.

Given that Wales now has (to my knowledge) four different independence parties with local councillors, I’d suspect there are even more in Scotland. I’ve said that without googling, you watch it be bull crap!

 

[Spoony]

It’s amazing that the powers that be can’t figure out that the way to encourage the union is not to adopt a “we know what’s best for you” approach…

[sharkyvilla]

Why don't they wait until after the next election?  Assume the Tories have a complete blow out under Boris, Labour win but are just short of a majority, go in for a coalition with the promise of a referendum towards the end of the parliament but in the mean time get a bit more devolved power anyway.  I don't see the point in rushing it with the worldwide economy on a bit of a knife edge as well.  There just don't seem to be many pros for doing it next year to me.

[CVByrne]

1 hour ago, chrisp65 said:

Genuinely not worked up about it.

I find it an absolutely fascinating subject, and to a large extent a means to an end. After all, I’m not Scots and I don’t live there!

Yes, there will obviously be a million subjects to discuss, nuclear submarines, oil rigs, currency and who will be entitled to what passport.

But I really can’t see how you put the worries ahead of the basic principle. To be slightly flippant and disrespectful, I’m sure the people of Dublin weren’t overly worried about currency and import tariffs and company law back in the day.

I think the concept of National identity is out dated and frankly idiotic. So as far as principles go mine are unrelated to a country and solely economic I would say. I would happily live anywhere I liked and enjoy different cultures and places. 

So things like Brexit or Scottish independence are just, to me, specifically political ideological manifestations primarily driven by politicans for their own purposes. 

What is there to gain? Only the politicans really gain. People who believed in it are no different to people who believe in any religion for example. 

[chrisp65]

1 minute ago, CVByrne said:

I think the concept of National identity is out dated and frankly idiotic. So as far as principles go mine are unrelated to a country and solely economic I would say. I would happily live anywhere I liked and enjoy different cultures and places. 

So things like Brexit or Scottish independence are just, to me, specifically political ideological manifestations primarily driven by politicans for their own purposes. 

What is there to gain? Only the politicans really gain. People who believed in it are no different to people who believe in any religion for example. 

Well that’s a genuinely interesting view.

Would you replace borders with something else? Or just let all people move freely everywhere?

[CVByrne]

1 minute ago, chrisp65 said:

Well that’s a genuinely interesting view.

Would you replace borders with something else? Or just let all people move freely everywhere?

Yep it's called the European Union. Freedom of movement of people and open borders between the countries