Ollie Watkins

[ejvilla]

He's not playing in his best position. He has been unsettled by the arrival of Ings. Presumably his confidence took a hit as well as no longer leading the line. So he needs to get the confidence back and he needs to play as the lone forward ahead of Buendia and Coutinho. 

Unfair to criticise him too much as his undoing is the result of persistently poor managerial decision making from Dean and Gerrard. 

Give him 5 games at the tip of that arrow head and I reckon he's back on top. 

Keep going as we are and he'll go the other way.

Ings is the luxury player for when we can't break down a low block. Was zero use in last few games.

[Skruff]

Think he's improved over the past few games. Coming back to his old self. I was critical in the start of the season, but he's playing far better now. Either Watkins or Ings needs to be dropped, both would probably perform better playing alone up top. 

[foreveryoung]

6 minutes ago, ejvilla said:

He's not playing in his best position. He has been unsettled by the arrival of Ings. Presumably his confidence took a hit as well as no longer leading the line. So he needs to get the confidence back and he needs to play as the lone forward ahead of Buendia and Coutinho. 

Unfair to criticise him too much as his undoing is the result of persistently poor managerial decision making from Dean and Gerrard. 

Give him 5 games at the tip of that arrow head and I reckon he's back on top. 

Keep going as we are and he'll go the other way.

Ings is the luxury player for when we can't break down a low block. Was zero use in last few games.

It's been said previous, if he's any good he will have to adapt to a different system. We can't change the whole team just to suit Watkins.

[ejvilla]

33 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

It's been said previous, if he's any good he will have to adapt to a different system. We can't change the whole team just to suit Watkins.

Yeah... except I'm sure that's what they said about Coutinho at Barcelona... and Grealish at City... and Sancho at Utd... Doherty at Spurs... Some players excel in a particular position and system - and that's okay - doesn't mean they're not excellent, just means they're not flexible. Some are more flexible- your Milners or Barrys.

 

And I dont want to change the system/team... i just want to drop Ings and stop playing Watkins in the 10/wide forward role.

Edited January 16, 2022 by ejvilla

[MaVilla]

51 minutes ago, ejvilla said:

He's not playing in his best position. He has been unsettled by the arrival of Ings. Presumably his confidence took a hit as well as no longer leading the line. So he needs to get the confidence back and he needs to play as the lone forward ahead of Buendia and Coutinho. 

Unfair to criticise him too much as his undoing is the result of persistently poor managerial decision making from Dean and Gerrard. 

Give him 5 games at the tip of that arrow head and I reckon he's back on top. 

Keep going as we are and he'll go the other way.

Ings is the luxury player for when we can't break down a low block. Was zero use in last few games.

If we want to be a club on the rise, players cant allow themselves to be "unsettled" by competition, the hallmark of a top club is literally competition for places, thats not an excuse for poor form, if a player cant handle competition, they pretty much arent capable of playing at a top club (not that we are yet).

Blaming Deano & Gerrard for Watkins poor form is just.....strange tbh, not sure even what to say to that, does Watkins bare no responsibility for his performances!?, i agree the managers have a level of control of start position, adherence to tactics etc, but a ball bouncing off a player, or just poor play, is the player...not the manager (in most cases).

I also agree that Ings hasnt blown us away either, i think both have a lot of improvements to make if im honest.

Ings isnt a luxury player, not sure of the stats right now, but a few games ago Ings' pressing stats were higher than Watkins per 90, all this "Ings is a lazy player" is just absolute nonsense, and anyone who claims it is purposefully lying, or just doesnt watch the actual matches, or doesnt look at the data, Ings works his a** off, and to be fair, so does Watkins.

I do think they shouldnt be playing together when everyone is fit, thats for sure, one of them leads the line, the other comes off the bench, competition for places, i dont care which it is, as long as they perform.

 

However, can we stop this habit of just making c*** up please.

tyvm.

Love you lots.

x

 

[ejvilla]

2 minutes ago, MaVilla said:

If we want to be a club on the rise, players cant allow themselves to be "unsettled" by competition, the hallmark of a top club is literally competition for places, thats not an excuse for poor form, if a player cant handle competition, they pretty much arent capable of playing at a top club (not that we are yet).

Blaming Deano & Gerrard for Watkins poor form is just.....strange tbh, not sure even what to say to that, does Watkins bare no responsibility for his performances!?, i agree the managers have a level of control of start position, adherence to tactics etc, but a ball bouncing off a player, or just poor play, is the player...not the manager (in most cases).

I also agree that Ings hasnt blown us away either, i think both have a lot of improvements to make if im honest.

Ings isnt a luxury player, not sure of the stats right now, but a few games ago Ings' pressing stats were higher than Watkins per 90, all this "Ings is a lazy player" is just absolute nonsense, and anyone who claims it is purposefully lying, or just doesnt watch the actual matches, or doesnt look at the data, Ings works his a** off, and to be fair, so does Watkins.

I do think they shouldnt be playing together when everyone is fit, thats for sure, one of them leads the line, the other comes off the bench, competition for places, i dont care which it is, as long as they perform.

 

However, can we stop this habit of just making c*** up please.

tyvm.

Love you lots.

x

 

Loads of top players are unsettled when new players join though - like Fernandes for Utd who's form went through the floor when the system changed to accommodate Ronaldo. Is he not good enough? Or Griezman at Barca? Or Torres when he moved to Chelsea? So that argument's a load of sh*te really isn't it?

Blaming Dean for messing with a system to facilitate Ings, disrupting Ollie's form - and Gerrard for persisting. Same yesterday - as soon as Ings went off we took control and scored 2.

Digne's another example- Rafa instructs him to play a role to which he's unsuited and his form dips. Is that all Digne's fault? Everton fans would disagree. 

Ings does not fit in my opinion. I agree it should be one or the other. But I'd have Archer ahead of Ings - finishing appears to be just as good, better in the air, and faster. I don't think he's lazy - he doesn't suit the system, and is lacking physically. Think he has a part to play against weaker teams. And it's not about some deep love for Watkins. Replace him in the morning with Lukaku.

Assume you're ranting to someone else about lying / making things up or whatever you're on about...

 

 

[gilbertoAVFC]

On 15/01/2022 at 23:01, MrSmirch said:

Good one

Gerrard called him our "most consistent player" before the FA Cup game. He knows quite a bit more about football than anyone on this forum

 

(but especially you)

[allani]

13 hours ago, ejvilla said:

Loads of top players are unsettled when new players join though - like Fernandes for Utd who's form went through the floor when the system changed to accommodate Ronaldo. Is he not good enough? Or Griezman at Barca? Or Torres when he moved to Chelsea? So that argument's a load of sh*te really isn't it?

Blaming Dean for messing with a system to facilitate Ings, disrupting Ollie's form - and Gerrard for persisting. Same yesterday - as soon as Ings went off we took control and scored 2.

Digne's another example- Rafa instructs him to play a role to which he's unsuited and his form dips. Is that all Digne's fault? Everton fans would disagree. 

Ings does not fit in my opinion. I agree it should be one or the other. But I'd have Archer ahead of Ings - finishing appears to be just as good, better in the air, and faster. I don't think he's lazy - he doesn't suit the system, and is lacking physically. Think he has a part to play against weaker teams. And it's not about some deep love for Watkins. Replace him in the morning with Lukaku.

Assume you're ranting to someone else about lying / making things up or whatever you're on about...

 

 

We were in control from about 30 minutes into the match.  I'm not saying that we didn't look better when Coutinho came on - but that had nothing to do with whether Ings or Watkins made way.  Watkins didn't play any better once Ings went off - he was pretty poor before and after the change.  The difference was that suddenly we had more men breaking into the box and Utd struggled to pick them all up.  I kind of agree with what you are saying though and if everyone is fit I don't think we will see Ings and Ollie playing at the same time.  My issue was more that we didn't improved because Ings came off, we improved because Coutinho came on.  Before we signed Coutinho we didn't have that level of quality (especially with the most likely options in that role being out with injury) and so it wasn't really an option for Gerrard to try.

[MrSmirch]

1 hour ago, gilbertoAVFC said:

Gerrard called him our "most consistent player" before the FA Cup game. He knows quite a bit more about football than anyone on this forum

 

(but especially you)

I’ll take Gerrard on any day in a football quiz. He might make up ground on 70’s Liverpool trivia but I’ll nail him on Serie A.

On the Watkins quote, do you really believe he was being honest?

[jimmygreaves]

16 hours ago, foreveryoung said:

It's been said previous, if he's any good he will have to adapt to a different system. We can't change the whole team just to suit Watkins.

....but it's fine for us to change the way we play in order to provide tap-ins for Ings....

The side has been set up to play with a busy 9 in Watkins. We did very well out of it. Watkins scored more goals last season than every single season Ings has been in the Prem bar one.

We're literally breaking everything good about our forward play to accommodate Ings.

Why isn't Ings being asked to adapt by the folks on here?

Edited January 17, 2022 by jimmygreaves

[nick76]

22 minutes ago, jimmygreaves said:

....but it's fine for us to change the way we play in order to provide tap-ins for Ings....

The side has been set up to play with a busy 9 in Watkins. We did very well out of it. Watkins scored more goals last season than every single season Ings has been in the Prem bar one.

We're literally breaking everything good about our forward play to accommodate Ings.

Why isn't Ings being asked to adapt by the folks on here?

Because he’s the better player for that position!

Edited January 17, 2022 by nick76

[PaulC]

4 minutes ago, nick76 said:

Because he’s the better player for that position!

Do you realise hes only scored the same amount of career goals as watkins yet is over 3 years older. Its a myth hes this great goal scorer. Hes a 1 in 3 which is decent but not top level and hes slow. 

[TRO]

On 02/01/2022 at 00:16, gwi1890 said:

Nice finish but that first touch…

 

see Dougie marking the Mannequins, par for the course.

just kidding...

Edited January 17, 2022 by TRO

[nick76]

1 minute ago, PaulC said:

Do you realise hes only scored the same amount of career goals as watkins yet is over 3 years older. Its a myth hes this great goal scorer. Hes a 1 in 3 which is decent but not top level and hes slow. 

See how quoting stats without context makes your argument sound so good but when you add the context that 80% of Ollie’s goals was outside of the top league it makes your comment look as if you were trying to deceive the audience reading it.

[MaVilla]

11 minutes ago, PaulC said:

Do you realise hes only scored the same amount of career goals as watkins yet is over 3 years older. Its a myth hes this great goal scorer. Hes a 1 in 3 which is decent but not top level and hes slow. 

 

2 minutes ago, nick76 said:

See how quoting stats without context makes your argument sound so good but when you add the context that 80% of Ollie’s goals was outside of the top league it makes your comment look as if you were trying to deceive the audience reading it.

Ye.

Of Ings' 110 goals, 64% of them have been in the PL or cups (70/110).

Of Watkins 96 goals, 26% of them have been in the PL or cups (26/98).

 

[nick76]

16 minutes ago, PaulC said:

Do you realise hes only scored the same amount of career goals as watkins yet is over 3 years older. Its a myth hes this great goal scorer. Hes a 1 in 3 which is decent but not top level and hes slow. 

Also Ings PL ratio is a goal every 193 minutes which is pretty much 1 in every two games scoring 59 goals in 11,416 minutes, which is pretty damn good considering most of those games are with not top teams in Southampton and Burnley.

Whereas Ollie is a goal every 252 minutes in the PL.

[TRO]

2 hours ago, allani said:

We were in control from about 30 minutes into the match.  I'm not saying that we didn't look better when Coutinho came on - but that had nothing to do with whether Ings or Watkins made way.  Watkins didn't play any better once Ings went off - he was pretty poor before and after the change.  The difference was that suddenly we had more men breaking into the box and Utd struggled to pick them all up.  I kind of agree with what you are saying though and if everyone is fit I don't think we will see Ings and Ollie playing at the same time.  My issue was more that we didn't improved because Ings came off, we improved because Coutinho came on.  Before we signed Coutinho we didn't have that level of quality (especially with the most likely options in that role being out with injury) and so it wasn't really an option for Gerrard to try.

I agree.....I also see that Coutinho, was prepared to go in amongst them with quick feet, big reputation and that spooked them.

I also think Carney made an impression on them too....he was another elusive figure, for them to contend with and all factors considered, it put them on their arse....with JJ growing in confidence with the additions.

I think its all about players playing off each other.....i.e Deehan, Gray, Little........Morely, Shaw, Withe.

Ings and Watkins have no telepathy or willingness to link up with each other, they are too far away from each other.

They play like they have just had a row.

[PaulC]

5 minutes ago, nick76 said:

Also Ings PL ratio is a goal every 193 minutes which is pretty much 1 in every two games scoring 59 goals in 11,416 minutes, which is pretty damn good considering most of those games are with not top teams in Southampton and Burnley.

Whereas Ollie is a goal every 252 minutes in the PL.

ok its 59 in 155 Premier League games which is nearer 1 in 3 but I accept he didnt start every game but depends how you want to use stats. 

[nick76]

1 minute ago, PaulC said:

ok its 59 in 155 Premier League games which is nearer 1 in 3 but I accept he didnt start every game but depends how you want to use stats. 

I like using them fairly.  Appearance stats are unfair comparison because players may only play part games.  You can only judge players based on the minutes on the pitch and in Danny’s case that is a PL goal in just over 2 games (193 minutes).

If you want to use appearance stats to forward your negative narrative then yes it’s 1 in 3 but you are giving a false impression of his impact to the reader of the comment.

[PaulC]

Just now, nick76 said:

I like using them fairly.  Appearance stats are unfair comparison because players may only play part games.  You can only judge players based on the minutes on the pitch and in Danny’s case that is a PL goal in just over 2 games (193 minutes).

If you want to use appearance stats to forward your negative narrative then yes it’s 1 in 3 but you are giving a false impression of his impact to the reader of the comment.

Ok fair enough, its about the team not individuals anyway. If Gerrard wants to go with Ings from the start and we are winning matches then I would be happy with that