Johan Lange

[OutByEaster?]

Our recruitment works by Gerrard and Lange sitting down and agreeing on positions in which they want to strengthen, they then draw up a shortlist of players in the positions they're interested in and pass that list on to Purslow who makes the negotiations and tries to bring the player in.

That hasn't changed since Smith was here.

[villa4europe]

20 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

Our recruitment works by Gerrard and Lange sitting down and agreeing on positions in which they want to strengthen, they then draw up a shortlist of players in the positions they're interested in and pass that list on to Purslow who makes the negotiations and tries to bring the player in.

That hasn't changed since Smith was here.

Yeah exactly, nothing has changed, we still have a scouting network and a head scout, Gerrard might say a name, lange might say a name, the scout that we have watching Fleetwoods youth team might say a name... Lange will then organise watching him properly doing due diligence on him (would be interesting to see if they do a full moneyball esque statistical analysis of the player to see if what the scouts see is backed up by the data, I'm sure lange has brought a new data guy in) no doubt putting the feelers out to the player and his agent and then passing it upwards to purslow

Gerrard might throw more names in the hat than Smith, he might take upon himself to put the feelers out to the likes of coutinho but that's about it

Not sure if FM and fifa has distorted people's understanding of how it works

Edited April 11, 2022 by villa4europe

[Delphinho123]

I’d love to know what Lange does. We hear a lot about data, science, scouting etc. but not sure we’ve really seen much of it in action. I mean, Buendia, Bailey and Ings - it’s not like they were hidden gems unbeknown to most fans and clubs…

I’m not expecting us to go out and sign loads of players for £5-10m and suddenly have a team good enough to qualify for Europe, but it would be nice if we could pick somebody up relatively cheap who perhaps has gone under the radar. I know it isn’t easy, but West Ham have managed to do it quite well recently, as have teams like Brighton consistently. 

Personally, I’d rate our transfer business as a 5/10 since being promoted. We’ve done well to stay in the league and put together a sizeable squad in order to compete with most of the teams in the league, but we’ve also spent a helluva lot of money in the process. You only have to look at net spend across all of the clubs in Europe to see how frivolous we’ve been with our transfer kitty - I still don’t think our league position is good enough considering that. 

After what was a very poor transfer window last Summer, this Summer feels huge. If we can’t at least get to the point where we’re looking like a top 8-10 team after this window, I feel we never will with the current set up - Purslow/Lange etc. 

Our owners have remained fantastic throughout and we’re lucky to have them.

Edited April 29, 2022 by Delphinho123

[Sam-AVFC]

On 29/04/2022 at 20:46, Delphinho123 said:

I’d love to know what Lange does. We hear a lot about data, science, scouting etc. but not sure we’ve really seen much of it in action. I mean, Buendia, Bailey and Ings - it’s not like they were hidden gems unbeknown to most fans and clubs…

I’m not expecting us to go out and sign loads of players for £5-10m and suddenly have a team good enough to qualify for Europe, but it would be nice if we could pick somebody up relatively cheap who perhaps has gone under the radar. I know it isn’t easy, but West Ham have managed to do it quite well recently, as have teams like Brighton consistently. 

Personally, I’d rate our transfer business as a 5/10 since being promoted. We’ve done well to stay in the league and put together a sizeable squad in order to compete with most of the teams in the league, but we’ve also spent a helluva lot of money in the process. You only have to look at net spend across all of the clubs in Europe to see how frivolous we’ve been with our transfer kitty - I still don’t think our league position is good enough considering that. 

After what was a very poor transfer window last Summer, this Summer feels huge. If we can’t at least get to the point where we’re looking like a top 8-10 team after this window, I feel we never will with the current set up - Purslow/Lange etc. 

Our owners have remained fantastic throughout and we’re lucky to have them.

Who did West Ham do it with other than Coufal? I think you'd be surprised to see Brighton haven't done it as often as perceived either. 

Post-brexit it's going to be almost impossible to sign 'hidden gems' as they simply won't get a work permit unless we purposely overpay like we allegedly did for Wesley.

I do wonder if a lot of effort is put towards scouting youth players as its an area we can really add value if we get it right.

We can probably all agree we'd like to do better signing from European leagues generally though.

[hippo]

Must be decent shout he leaves us at the season's end.

[ZL-]

I haven't been't bowled over by Lange but I was thinking about the actual players that have been recruited under him and I would say the majority have been a successful (although I'm sure everyone has their own measure of success...)

Most of the discussion has been moreso around if the players fit into the playing style / formation of the club and a lack of joined up thinking in how they impact other players in the squad. However it seems that Lange doesn't take the role that other Sporting Directors in instilling a philosophy of playing and recruiting for that, instead on evidence it has still been up to the manager be it Dean or Gerrard to chose the style of play.

Given the more recent form of both Ings and Buendia, I think you could argue only Bailey has been a miss out of class of 21/22, some may go further and add Coutinho but on a loan more risk can be taken.

The intake of 20/21 is hard to directly attribute who to Lange given his late arrival in the summer but again most would agree only Traore or Sanson could be categorised as flops.

Some may call it stretching , but given the commercial negotiation is something that is in Purslow's remit, we can judge Lange scouting by the confirmed targets that we didn't land such as Emile Smith-Rowe and James Ward-Prowse whom both went onto have even better seasons than their previous - even Bentancur has taken to the prem with ease since joining Spurs in January.

It seems likely Lange will have a big budget once more given Gerrard's demands alongside the likely exits, this summer feels like the weight to get the targets identification spot is larger than ever, but maybe looking at Lange's track record we don't give him enough credit for the part he seems to responsible for and that's player scouting.

 

 

[WHY]

16 minutes ago, ZL- said:

I haven't been't bowled over by Lange but I was thinking about the actual players that have been recruited under him and I would say the majority have been a successful (although I'm sure everyone has their own measure of success...)

Most of the discussion has been moreso around if the players fit into the playing style / formation of the club and a lack of joined up thinking in how they impact other players in the squad. However it seems that Lange doesn't take the role that other Sporting Directors in instilling a philosophy of playing and recruiting for that, instead on evidence it has still been up to the manager be it Dean or Gerrard to chose the style of play.

Given the more recent form of both Ings and Buendia, I think you could argue only Bailey has been a miss out of class of 21/22, some may go further and add Coutinho but on a loan more risk can be taken.

The intake of 20/21 is hard to directly attribute who to Lange given his late arrival in the summer but again most would agree only Traore or Sanson could be categorised as flops.

Some may call it stretching , but given the commercial negotiation is something that is in Purslow's remit, we can judge Lange scouting by the confirmed targets that we didn't land such as Emile Smith-Rowe and James Ward-Prowse whom both went onto have even better seasons than their previous - even Bentancur has taken to the prem with ease since joining Spurs in January.

It seems likely Lange will have a big budget once more given Gerrard's demands alongside the likely exits, this summer feels like the weight to get the targets identification spot is larger than ever, but maybe looking at Lange's track record we don't give him enough credit for the part he seems to responsible for and that's player scouting.

 

 

He shouldn’t be anywhere near the club imo. Came from a 3rd rate league and probably had a budget of around £5m a season. If we are serious about getting to the next level we need better than Lange.

[TRO]

Not convinced,in Johan Lange, if I'm honest.

[villa4europe]

37 minutes ago, WHY said:

He shouldn’t be anywhere near the club imo. Came from a 3rd rate league and probably had a budget of around £5m a season. If we are serious about getting to the next level we need better than Lange.

Why? 

What is it that you think he does that the size of the budget changes anything? 

He puts in place and then manages the infrastructure, on what part of that is he failing? If its scouting then lange sacks the chief scout, if its the u23 performance then he sacks the u23 coach

if the the infrastructure is failing then we sack lange 

I don't agree that Bailey was a bad signing so therefore we sack Lange, instead we look at who scouted him and see what went wrong - and when I say "we" I mean Lange - we still have scouts and a chief scout, Lange isn't solely responsible for finding every player we buy, he ultimately signs them off but our scouts find them 

Langes swimming against the tide because no one seems to have a 100% understanding of what it is that he does (including me, I'm just going off how German teams use the sporting director role) 

[ZL-]

I didn't expect many to agree as it has felt off for me also, ultimately we have not improved since the last window despite the incomings. However my post is more to point out I would say the footballing talent of our squad has improved quite a bit.

The signing of Ings without an understanding of how he would integrate with Watkins was a mistake and the signing of Bailey without usage of wingers seems criminal. Ings recent contributions and partnership with Watkins would make me feel the first point is not quite as important and I would argue the Bailey signing has fallen foul due to the change of manager out of Lange's hands (also feel that given Baileys actual gametime, 7 starts is still too early to write off his future under SG).

There can be some other arguments leveled at Lange, some might have expected a Moneyball style given his experience but there has been little evidence of gems a la Brighton/Brentford. Again perhaps that is simple as style for more cash constrained clubs and spending bigger on more guaranteed quality is the safest way of progression.

Admittedly maybe the level of 'hit' signing might be a low bar, with some expecting a huge hit by now taking into account fee spent. I still feel Martinez and Cash may fit into this category, but whether they had Lange's involvement or not is to be questioned.

Overall it feels fair to say the individual talent selection has worked but the fees may have outweighed the perceived contribution to the team, which is something that might more fitting to fall on Purslow's dock rather than Lange's.

[VillaParkAvenue]

Clubs seem to interpret the role of sporting director/director of football/technical director differently. Someone like Paratici at Spurs is responsible for appointing a new manager, which at Villa seems to be mainly on Purslow’s table.

Lange wasn’t recruited as a big name in the business and, at least from the outside, it looks like his role isn’t as big as some of his colleagues at other clubs.

Villa’s summer of 2020 was brilliant IMO with Martinez, Cash and Watkins signed. But people often say transfers are long term projects, so Lange beginning on the job just a month earlier could perhaps mean he wasn’t that involved in those signings?

If Lange is judged only from the January window 2021 onwards he hasn’t been involved in that many deals yet.

[MWARLEY2]

I am in the Lange in camp.  It seems that every window we are held up as having had one of the best. 

Cash Watkins Martinez and Barkley was a brilliant window. 

And ings Bailey and Buendia was on paper and according to all the experts a brilliant way to spend the Grealish money. 1 of the 3 started well . The other 2 took theit time and are now hugely deserved members of the squad. And the one that started well has faded. 

And Coutinho and Chambers was a decent last window as well. 

Where i can question him is the midfield area. Sanson hasnt shown any real sustained quality and not getting a DM in Jan was a travesty . But thats where the relationship between the manager and the DOF has to work. Maybe he said i can get you player A and Gerrard didnt rate him and said no.  I want player B . If he starts buying players Gerrard doesnt want then things go south rapidly . 

Successes 

Martinez Cash Watkins Chambers Ings 

Good but more to do to justify the fee

Buendia , Digne , Traore , Coutinho 

Failures 

Bailey ( but still i believe he has alot to offer ) and Sanson 

I think that kind of hit rate is pretty decent .  

 

[WHY]

51 minutes ago, villa4europe said:

Why? 

What is it that you think he does that the size of the budget changes anything? 

He puts in place and then manages the infrastructure, on what part of that is he failing? If its scouting then lange sacks the chief scout, if its the u23 performance then he sacks the u23 coach

if the the infrastructure is failing then we sack lange 

I don't agree that Bailey was a bad signing so therefore we sack Lange, instead we look at who scouted him and see what went wrong - and when I say "we" I mean Lange - we still have scouts and a chief scout, Lange isn't solely responsible for finding every player we buy, he ultimately signs them off but our scouts find them 

Langes swimming against the tide because no one seems to have a 100% understanding of what it is that he does (including me, I'm just going off how German teams use the sporting director role) 

I just don’t think he’s experienced enough for the role and stature of the club. Nothing personal against him but if we won’t  to get to the next level we need better imo. I agree regarding the scouts but ultimately he’s the SD and will live and die by his decision, so far I’ve been far from impressed with our transfer business since he arrived. Chased 2 players last summer who were never going to come, just don’t think an experienced SD at a higher level would’ve be so naive. Ings also felt like a panic buy to appease fans after selling our best player, don’t want panic buys from our SD. Completely went against our previous transfer dealings. 

[NurembergVillan]

I'd be very confident that his job description stretches far beyond just signing players for the first team.

[Zatman]

3 hours ago, TRO said:

Not convinced,in Johan Lange, if I'm honest.

More convinced by Johan Lange than Stevie G

[Hank Scorpio]

Lange slander.

Not acceptable!

[peterw]

The other thing to consider when looking for players is that the manager of the time, obviously only Smith before Gerrard will have a system and want players to fit that system. Smith would have said to Lange, Suso, and whoever that they are looking players who play in A, B or C roles lange then comes up with the best available options. bailey hasn't worked out but for many reasons offered previously - injuries, out of the team, no run of games etc he may come good he may not but I don't think he should be singled out as a reason for Lange being sacked. Ings was the only transfer I would hgave genuinely questioned but really it was a no brainer for a club looking for the posiition just about every Villa fan thought we needed strengthening - another striker next to Ollie. CDM hasn';t happened but it won't have been for wont of trying, remembering that the other club and player have to also be willing participants.

For me the lack of choesion at the end of Grealish going and then Smith going has been the problem. The change in formation rendering quite a few of our players 'redundant' another. I wouldn't put any of that on Lange.

[VillaParkAvenue]

Apart from discussing individual transfers I’m also curious how the club is looking at things like squad planning with a longer horizon than the current season. Do Villa have enough players coming through in different positions, how do we avoid difficult generation shifts and so on.

You would assume those were questions for the sporting director and it would be interesting to know more about how they are taken care of.

[sparrow1988]

8 hours ago, Pissflaps said:

Lange slander.

Not acceptable!

Truth be told, it should result in a ban from the mods.

[messi11]

Couldn't sell bottles of water in a dessert, Would loan the bottles tho.