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maqroll

Political Ramifications of Covid-19 Pandemic

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You would think that the longer this crisis goes on, the more authoritarian many governments will become. They will use the pandemic as a convenient excuse to apply an iron grip on their populations. If fundamental aspects of the global economy break down or become obsolete, there will be a massive shift in how societies structure themselves and what people do with their lives.

 

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7 hours ago, maqroll said:

You would think that the longer this crisis goes on, the more authoritarian many governments will become. 

Good thread.

Not so sure these days,  too many socially connected people vs the governments.  They can't move quick enough,  Hong kong a good recent example.

They can only be as authoritarian as their Police /troops are loyal to the governments and not their own families.  (Does that make sense)?

 

Edited by Amsterdam_Neil_D
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10 minutes ago, Straggler said:

Also as the rich

Being nice,  not a hoarder, looking out for others,  having a healthy set of a family and friends,  sharing stuff and being part of the solution is the new rich or could be 👍

 

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2 minutes ago, Amsterdam_Neil_D said:

Being nice,  not a hoarder, looking out for others,  having a healthy set of a family and friends,  sharing stuff and being part of the solution is the new rich or could be 👍

 

Wouldn't that be nice.

Also it may prevent the earth becoming uninhabitable to humans, which is a bonus.

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At the end of this we will all stay as compliant as necessary to pay the rent.

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5 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

At the end of this we will all stay as compliant as necessary to pay the rent.

I think this is much nearer the mark than some of the socialist utopias suggested so far in this thread. There will be massive unemployment - probably much worse than the 1930s - and people will be so desperate for work they'll be accepting low wages, poor conditions and long hours (that process was already well under way, but it will become the overwhelming norm). 

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We also have a government with a massive majority that have 4.5 years left so they don’t even need to go making any empty promises for a long while.

 

It is looking like we might need more state control over public transport, we’ll need more income support for just about everyone and we could very much do with full access to full broadband. If somebody offered all that, you’d imagine most people would see how sensible it was.

 

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What with the talk that the  government will be  potentially stepping in and paying peoples electricty and gas bills  , rent and rates being covered , SSP being paid  , chucking money at the NHS on new staff and ICU units   ... throw in free broadband and we might as well have voted for Corbyn

 

 

 

Edited by tonyh29
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4 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

It is looking like we might need more state control over public transport, we’ll need more income support for just about everyone and we could very much do with full access to full broadband. If somebody offered all that, you’d imagine most people would see how sensible it was.

Not really. I know the point you're making, but still. It's a bit glib, to say the least. I mean, measures required in a global crisis and measures required when there's no such sitution aren't remotely comparable. The Guvmint has or can take control, or "more control" as you put it, over public transport. Ditto provision of income support when half the country's shut down. Broadband/internet/information availability - what we're looking for in the immediate short term is information on specific matters available to everyone, not "the ability to connect a smart device and get good speeds". Broadband is little use to an elderly person who doesn't know how to use a computer, or own one.

Apples and Oranges and all that. I mean everyone should have voted for the marshall law party, right? because that's looking like a better policy than Johnson's "don't grasp the mettle, wing it" one.

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2 hours ago, Straggler said:

I'm hoping for a swing to the left as people are reminded in very dramatic fashion that effective public services are not just a nice to have.  The drift towards individualism and greed may yet be checked.  I'm also hoping that it will pull the wool away from peoples eyes about populist politicians as they get found out around the world.  Lies and hating on the experts may have been working on Brexit and typical Tory v Labour political wrangling, but a virus gives zero shits about the lies and just keeps on going.  There was a massive swing to the left at the end of the WW2, with the war hero Churchill turfed out, so it is not as unprecedented as you may think. 

Also as the rich have buggered off to their bunkers and laid off loads of staff and come cap in hand for more tax payer money we may at last notice that allowing the rich to just gather more wealth endlessly is really stupid as they do not give a shit about us.  The longest shot I'm hoping for is a proper wealth tax to start redistributing some of that hording.  Hording that is again obviously hurting us all as it gets more widespread.  We can't keep going the way we are going, this needs to be a wake up call.

The modern social safety net was built after the collective horrors of WW2 and has been slowly unwinding ever since. 

This could be the wake up call to cause people to stop for a rethink?

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4 minutes ago, blandy said:

Not really. I know the point you're making, but still. It's a bit glib, to say the least. I mean, measures required in a global crisis and measures required when there's no such sitution aren't remotely comparable. The Guvmint has or can take control, or "more control" as you put it, over public transport. Ditto provision of income support when half the country's shut down. Broadband/internet/information availability - what we're looking for in the immediate short term is information on specific matters available to everyone, not "the ability to connect a smart device and get good speeds". Broadband is little use to an elderly person who doesn't know how to use a computer, or own one.

Apples and Oranges and all that. I mean everyone should have voted for the marshall law party, right? because that's looking like a better policy than Johnson's "don't grasp the mettle, wing it" one.

Yes, there will be people that find little benefit in broadband. Just as there will be people that get little benefit from handing millions of quids to Branson or HS2 or Hinckley nuclear power station.

A concentration on generally better public transport for people with actual physical jobs, rather than billions on HS2 for Train Guy would be immense. Skype or Team or whatever would save money and save environment and push more modern ways of working.

Better local trains and buses would mean less cars would mean less pollution.

Better pay and better support and better social care would stop bed blocking and would free up carers and help people pay rents.

All of that would have been a good idea regardless of the unforeseen event, because whilst we couldn’t foresee this specific issue. But surely we knew that at some point there would be some sort of massive emergency. 

As I’ve mentioned elsewhere, there should be emergency plans, those emergency plans need to be more than protect the insurance companies.

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Could have a massive effect on the global economy. We will need to become more self sufficient. If their hadn’t have been a recent election I think we could have seen a huge swing to left with peoples jobs and livelihood at threat. Maybe with the mortgage holidays and evictions being stopped people might have a better more caring attitude to those who are sick and out of work. 

Doubt it though! People are people and look after themselves and will revert to type when this is all over 

 

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3 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

Yes, there will be people that find little benefit in broadband. Just as there will be people that get little benefit from handing millions of quids to Branson or HS2 or Hinckley nuclear power station.

A concentration on generally better public transport for people with actual physical jobs, rather than billions on HS2 for Train Guy would be immense. Skype or Team or whatever would save money and save environment and push more modern ways of working.

Better local trains and buses would mean less cars would mean less pollution.

Better pay and better support and better social care would stop bed blocking and would free up carers and help people pay rents.

All of that would have been a good idea regardless of the unforeseen event, because whilst we couldn’t foresee this specific issue. But surely we knew that at some point there would be some sort of massive emergency. 

As I’ve mentioned elsewhere, there should be emergency plans, those emergency plans need to be more than protect the insurance companies.

I took you to be alluding to Labour's do everything manifesto and the current pandemic consequences, Chris. They promised the earth. Even they now recognise it was a mistake.

My point was in response to that interpretation (right or wrong).

Had they stuck to the key issues, they might have done less badly. Anyone can see and has seen social care and NHS get whacked over a decade. Who owns the trains is irrelevant right now. As is HS2.

Of course better public transport would be, er, better. And obviously fewer cars would bring less pollution. Video conferencing can save travel time and costs - apple pie is delicious...

What parties put in manifestos is never "we'll make things worse". Tories tend to do it anyway, mind.

In terms of ramifacations as per the thread title, I hope that the Thatcherite chancer tendency is obliterated politically. Then whatever party runs the country will do the things you listed, or most of them, over time (apart from the broadband, which is going to be overtaken anyway).

 

 

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It comes down to basic protection of the people of the state. I’ve got my own boring views on the size and shape of that state. But we simply aren’t serious about independence and ‘sovereignty’ and defence.

We don’t have our own food, we don’t even own our own water anymore, never mind energy or transport.

I’m not suggesting a return to 1957, as nice as some aspects of that year were. Just that all that London money currently just goes to make living in London more and more horrible for the punter.

I’ll avoid the phrase ‘back to basics’. But we need food, health, steel, energy, inventors, and business. Not just business. And less **** about in half arsed unresearched half cocked wars. And whilst I’m on a roll, less **** military charities. If we can’t give ex soldiers what they need, how are we sending them away to get smashed up? Criminal.

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Hopefully the only changes will be the Chinese culture towards eating weird shit. **** idiots 

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46 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

It comes down to basic protection of the people of the state. I’ve got my own boring views on the size and shape of that state. But we simply aren’t serious about independence and ‘sovereignty’ and defence.

We don’t have our own food, we don’t even own our own water anymore, never mind energy or transport.

I’m not suggesting a return to 1957, as nice as some aspects of that year were. Just that all that London money currently just goes to make living in London more and more horrible for the punter.

I’ll avoid the phrase ‘back to basics’. But we need food, health, steel, energy, inventors, and business. Not just business. And less **** about in half arsed unresearched half cocked wars. And whilst I’m on a roll, less **** military charities. If we can’t give ex soldiers what they need, how are we sending them away to get smashed up? Criminal.

Definitely agree. And what makes all that more mad is that for 40 years we've moved in that direction, in large part because of the EU membership and the inter-connectedness of the modern world. We set up a system to allow us to be like that, then we left the system and now we're effed. The efforts (if there ever are any) to return us to independence and sovereignty (in deed not just words) will take ages, cost money that would be better spent elsewhere (or much of it would be). We're now putting up barriers to the good things and cutting ourselves out of the loop, for better or worse.

I agree we need (and have long done so) to need to invest in and respect and appreciate and protect our industries and farming and so on that create stuff we need, whether that be food, clothing, defence. The Thatcherite move to "services" at the expense of those other industries was and is wrong and counter productive. Selling off everything and anything was madness.

On the one side we've got the likes of Russia actively working to undermine and harm the UK, on another we've got the US protectionism made worse by Trump, on another we've got China with all the intellectual property theft and industrial espionage on a massive scale. And we're run by a bunch of absolute whoppers.

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2 hours ago, KenjiOgiwara said:

Hopefully the only changes will be the Chinese culture towards eating weird shit. **** idiots 

They might thinking eating a battered sausage is weird, to be fair.

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27 minutes ago, fightoffyour said:

They might thinking eating a battered sausage is weird, to be fair.

How about a battered bat? 🤔

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