Popular Post HanoiVillan Posted March 24, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted March 24, 2021 Just now, Genie said: No. Im just saying, the statements that we’re 100% vaccinated so let’s get back to normal are untrue. The reason that international travel will be delayed will be down to the variants that are not currently rife in this country being a threat because the existing vaccines provide very little protection against them. This claim that 'the existing vaccines provide very little protection' against variants is one that you keep making, but is not true. We do have some studies that suggest the AZ vaccine in particular does not provide strong protection against mild to moderate infections with one particular variant, but mild to moderate is not a serious concern, by definition. The problem with your position here is that, whether you intend it to be or not, it is an argument for never having international travel again. There will never be a vaccine that protects against all variants, real or hypothetical. The idea of 100% protection is a fantasy. In practice, the only possible improvement on a situation in which everybody is vaccinated is one in which there is an over-the-counter medicine that cures covid; this does not yet exist, and may never do so. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 To be honest, with this sort of virus, there isn't really an ability to have a cure. It latches onto your cells, causing your own immune system to start attacking those cells. You can't really find a cure, because as a virus it mutates, much in the same way that we cannot find a cure for the cold, or the flu. To 'treat' them, you just keep your body in a position to keep fighting it, rather than taking anything to 'treat' the virus. Mutations happen, they will never stop happening. We do not lock down because of flu mutations, even though flu kills thousands a year. If we're not having 0 restrictions when all vulnerable people are vaccinated, get ready for a world with restrictions forever, all while people nod and agree and think 'yeah that's reasonable' because of bad science and politics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingman Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 So this Rule of 6 or 2 house holds that can meet outside from March 29th. Has this been caveated again to just meeting in public places or can you meet in private residential gardens? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted March 24, 2021 Moderator Share Posted March 24, 2021 1 hour ago, Genie said: Everybody would be extremely quick to criticise them if infections, hospital admissions and deaths started shooting up and we were back into lockdown, schools and shops closed etc. Yes, this is the key. You've got broadly, 2 conflicting desires, the one above - I want to avoid being blamed if it all goes tits up, and the opposite one - I want to do pubs and shopping and business and fun and family and "normal life". They're both understandable, completely so, but neither are evidence based, they're human desires. The virus and the science, they don't have desires. They are what they are. The man in charge of the Country monumentally screwed up a year ago. Just monumentally so, massively so. It can't be overstated what a mess he caused. Now at least he's cottoned on to that. SO it's slanting him towards caution and towards not ignoring what the science and virus are saying and doing. The flip side - the "open up now" politicians are ignoring that they were completely wrong last year, multiple times, and still haven't learnt a single lesson. It doesn't mean the need to protect people's sanity and freedom etc. isn't real. But they haven't realised that you can't protect those things if there's a virus running rampant. The virus is running rampant in much of the continent, and in the world. if it gets back here, we're not yet in a situation where it won't run rampant here again. We're getting there, hopefully. The virus is, meanwhile, mutating, spreading different variants, killing people, overwhelming hospitals across the world. There's not enough people in the UK vaccinated to be sure that a variant won't cause a repeat of the hospital scenes from as recently as January. You can guess, you can hope, but you can't know. Under those circumstances caution is not just wise, it's essential and based on what the evidence says. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 8 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: To be honest, with this sort of virus, there isn't really an ability to have a cure. It latches onto your cells, causing your own immune system to start attacking those cells. You can't really find a cure, because as a virus it mutates, much in the same way that we cannot find a cure for the cold, or the flu. To 'treat' them, you just keep your body in a position to keep fighting it, rather than taking anything to 'treat' the virus. Pfizar are currently trialing an antiviral treatment for COVID that you would take when you realise you have symptoms, it's similar to HIV antiviral treatments apparently. Quote Pfizer, which brought the first U.S.-approved Covid-19 vaccine to market, is conducting a stage one clinical trial on an oral antiviral therapy that a Covid-19 patient could take when they first develop symptoms, which would make it the first oral antiviral treatment of its kind for coronavirus. https://www.forbes.com/sites/melissaholzberg/2021/03/23/pfizer-testing-oral-covid-treatment---would-be-first-to-market/?sh=616191b65759 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mic09 Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 36 minutes ago, Genie said: No. Im just saying, the statements that we’re 100% vaccinated so let’s get back to normal are untrue. The reason that international travel will be delayed will be down to the variants that are not currently rife in this country being a threat because the existing vaccines provide very little protection against them. I'd be a a bit more cynical and say that international travel being delayed is due to two factors; caution by government, but more importantly, the desire to keep people spending money in Cornwall rather than in Cyprus or Ibiza. Once the summer comes, international travel ban will be a 'Eat out to help out' on steroids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 32 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: This claim that 'the existing vaccines provide very little protection' against variants is one that you keep making, but is not true. We do have some studies that suggest the AZ vaccine in particular does not provide strong protection against mild to moderate infections with one particular variant, but mild to moderate is not a serious concern, by definition. The problem with your position here is that, whether you intend it to be or not, it is an argument for never having international travel again. There will never be a vaccine that protects against all variants, real or hypothetical. The idea of 100% protection is a fantasy. In practice, the only possible improvement on a situation in which everybody is vaccinated is one in which there is an over-the-counter medicine that cures covid; this does not yet exist, and may never do so. I’m not saying we should never have international travel, just pointing out the flaw in the argument about being protected/vaccinated. We’re getting towards having our own house in order now. Yes, it’ll always be around but it’s getting close to the numbers that we aren’t going to shut down our lives for. Opening up the ports and allowing international travel is a huge threat to that. We know there are variants that are a risk to our population. As more data comes in we’ll know more, but the initial study regards the strain found in South Africa in particular is a big risk. Just because nobody died in the small test group of young people doesn’t mean it’s not deadly. We have to see, I doubt the government will risk finding out the hard way (I hope not anyway). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seat68 Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 Considering the potential slowing down, my wife, 49, no health issues, not front line has been invited for her first jab. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silent_Bob Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 44 minutes ago, Genie said: No. Im just saying, the statements that we’re 100% vaccinated so let’s get back to normal are untrue. The reason that international travel will be delayed will be down to the variants that are not currently rife in this country being a threat because the existing vaccines provide very little protection against them. There won't be 100% vaccinated. At least 10% refuse to take the vaccine and a big part of the population is under 18. Then the question is, does it matter? And if it does, what will be done about it. Herd immunity will protect, but obviously there is a risk that a virus spreading between those under 18 might mutate again. Pencillin was a great invention, but since then bugs have developed and is much more resistent to antibiotics. The way out of Covid isn't the vaccine alone, but it's vaccine in combination with efficient treatment of infected people. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 The return to school is going badly for my children. Daughters year group off this week due to confirmed case at the weekend. Just been informed entire school will close tomorrow and Friday for a deep clean due to more cases. Lets see if they go back next week, not holding my breath. With Easter holiday after that it could be another month off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 Why are we still doing this awful science around deep cleaning? It's been well established that the virus spreads via droplets in air; there is little evidence around the virus spreading via surface contamination. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ender4 Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 5 minutes ago, Genie said: The return to school is going badly for my children. Daughters year group off this week due to confirmed case at the weekend. Just been informed entire school will close tomorrow and Friday for a deep clean due to more cases. Lets see if they go back next week, not holding my breath. With Easter holiday after that it could be another month off. Where is that? No cases in our primary school at all since kids went back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 (edited) 5 minutes ago, ender4 said: Where is that? No cases in our primary school at all since kids went back. Tamworth. I’m surprised because they had almost no issues since September. In the past week theres been several within the children and staff. A high school down the road also closed to all pupils this week. I think this area does have more than it’s fair share of social media scientists so that could be a factor. Edited March 24, 2021 by Genie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mic09 Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 6 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: Why are we still doing this awful science around deep cleaning? It's been well established that the virus spreads via droplets in air; there is little evidence around the virus spreading via surface contamination. Because while the virus is clearly a dangerous infectious disease, it's also become a stick to hit people with. Imagine one crazy parent going ape shit for not deep cleaning something. It would backlash on the school badly. Same with outdoor dining - we could have opened restaurants that are able to offer outdoor seats ages ago with a caveat of proving customers are one household. But we decide not to, with more of a political than scientific reasoning. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Albrighton Posted March 24, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted March 24, 2021 45 minutes ago, Kingman said: So this Rule of 6 or 2 house holds that can meet outside from March 29th. Has this been caveated again to just meeting in public places or can you meet in private residential gardens? You can meet in private residential gardens from 29th March. Rule of 6 or 2 households as you say. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 1 hour ago, HanoiVillan said: Literally the ability to have a normal life. I don't get what you're not getting. I haven't been able to see my cousins or my friends. We haven't been able to see one of my best friends before she gives birth. My wife didn't get to go to her grandmother's funeral, and we haven't met our niece (my wife is her godmother). And despite you trying to make going to the cinema sound as gross as possible, I do in fact miss going to the cinema, and the gym, and to pubs and restaurants and the beach and places more than an unspecified distance from my house that the police can decide is or isn't 'reasonable' at their discretion, and I don't enjoy just staying in my own house, doing the same boring routine every **** day as if I was under house arrest. Well I suppose it comes down to individuals' thresholds for this sort of frustration - I spent about 20 days in hospital without visitors but didn't for one moment interpret that as being robbed of my freedoms - yet I suspect the reasons for it are the same as you've been kept separate from others too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 With due respect, that is an incredibly silly comparison. Spending 20 days in hospital because of your own illness vs spending over a year with restricted freedoms to protect others, with very low risk to your own health are not remotely the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 1 minute ago, StefanAVFC said: With due respect, that is an incredibly silly comparison. Spending 20 days in hospital because of your own illness vs spending over a year with restricted freedoms to protect others, with very low risk to your own health are not remotely the same. Yet I was subjected to the same year of restricted movement too. Must be some think personal 'freedoms' mid pandemic are a human right that trumps all other considerations. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 4 minutes ago, Jareth said: Well I suppose it comes down to individuals' thresholds for this sort of frustration - I spent about 20 days in hospital without visitors but didn't for one moment interpret that as being robbed of my freedoms - yet I suspect the reasons for it are the same as you've been kept separate from others too. The balance between restrictions on freedoms and protecting public health is of course complex, and can and will change in different directions at different times; what I am rejecting is your initial post in which you appeared to be arguing that there are *no* restrictions on people's freedoms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 1 minute ago, HanoiVillan said: The balance between restrictions on freedoms and protecting public health is of course complex, and can and will change in different directions at different times; what I am rejecting is your initial post in which you appeared to be arguing that there are *no* restrictions on people's freedoms. Fair do's - I think we probably just have different interpretation of what a freedom is - I understand the frustration - maybe I'm just anti-social and not fond of my family! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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