Generic Virus Thread

[blandy]

1 minute ago, LondonLax said:

The way the contracts were written stipulates all vaccines made in the U.K. must be given to the U.K

Have you anything to show that's true?

Quote

The EU and the US both contributed millions to the company which it used for development and production (over €400m came from the EU 

The EU say they paid 396 million Euros as an up front advance purchase price for 300 million doses of the AstraZeneca vaccine, with an option for further 100 million doses after it had been developed. The Manufacturing sites in the UK were not funded by the EU. They were existing, or UK funded from all I've read.

The AZ issues and the EU are more around EU located AZ sites having problems, especially in Belgium.

[LondonLax]

6 minutes ago, blandy said:

Have you anything to show that's true?

The EU say they paid 396 million Euros as an up front advance purchase price for 300 million doses of the AstraZeneca vaccine, with an option for further 100 million doses after it had been developed. The Manufacturing sites in the UK were not funded by the EU. They were existing, or UK funded from all I've read.

The AZ issues and the EU are more around EU located AZ sites having problems, especially in Belgium.

It was from the article I quoted:

Quote

The UK does not have a an export ban in legislation but the government signed a contract with AstraZeneca that obliges the Anglo-Swedish company to deliver doses produced in Oxford and Staffordshire to Britain first.

A production problem in one AZ factory around the world would ordinarily mean that other factories could step in, including the company’s factories in the U.K., but it would appear the company is contractually prohibited from doing that. 

[blandy]

6 minutes ago, LondonLax said:

It was from the article I quoted:

... obliges the Anglo-Swedish company to deliver doses produced in Oxford and Staffordshire to Britain first.

A production problem in one AZ factory around the world would ordinarily mean that other factories could step in, including the company’s factories in the U.K., but it would appear the company is contractually prohibited from doing that. 

Thanks That tallies with what I'd read and said -  "first dibs" not "the U.K. wrote an export ban into its contact with AZ. 

Yeah, the factory in Belgium struggling is a problem. The difficult thing is perhaps that the UK has (still) the worst death rate from the virus of any of the developed nations, and by a distance. We were also first to approve AZ, the EU has a stock of AZ they're not using (because they're being idiots) and it's got really political by the EU politicians.

I think they are/were of a mindset that "Brexit was a mad act of self harm*, the UK has done something so mental with Brexit that they will struggle at everything" and then while the EU faffed and bureaucrated around, taking ages, the UK cracked on and started vaccinating. Then you had all this bollex about "it doesn't work over 65" and then "it's not safe"  and the more they've made a horlicks of that side of things, the more the public has looked at the UK and their situation in the EU and gone "WTF" and so the EU politicians are resorting (as Brits do many times) to jingoism and all that stuff.

 

*it was a mad act of self harm overall, but it has at least freed the UK from the worst aspects of membership as well as all the good ones that we madly threw away.

[LondonLax]

3 minutes ago, blandy said:

Thanks That tallies with what I'd read and said -  "first dibs" not "the U.K. wrote an export ban into its contact with AZ. 

Yeah, the factory in Belgium struggling is a problem. The difficult thing is perhaps that the UK has (still) the worst death rate from the virus of any of the developed nations, and by a distance. We were also first to approve AZ, the EU has a stock of AZ they're not using (because they're being idiots) and it's got really political by the EU politicians.

I think they are/were of a mindset that "Brexit was a mad act of self harm*, the UK has done something so mental with Brexit that they will struggle at everything" and then while the EU faffed and bureaucrated around, taking ages, the UK cracked on and started vaccinating. Then you had all this bollex about "it doesn't work over 65" and then "it's not safe"  and the more they've made a horlicks of that side of things, the more the public has looked at the UK and their situation in the EU and gone "WTF" and so the EU politicians are resorting (as Brits do many times) to jingoism and all that stuff.

 

*it was a mad act of self harm overall, but it has at least freed the UK from the worst aspects of membership as well as all the good ones that we madly threw away.

That’s splitting hairs if ever I’ve heard it! 

“We’ve not banned exports, just that all the production has to come to us and we’re not sending any of it overseas!”

 

 

[blandy]

39 minutes ago, LondonLax said:

“We’ve not banned exports, just that all the production has to come to us and we’re not sending any of it overseas!”

Yeah, that's exactly what it is. Splitting hairs maybe, but it's not a ban.

There is a difference in the two approaches: 

UK - the only AZ customer at that point  - "sell us your UK produced stuff and make it priority above any future orders you might or might not get".

EU - a later customer - "stop meeting your agreed contract with the UK and deliver to us instead. And if you don't we'll ban exports from the EU factories to the UK".

 

[Ingram85]

3 hours ago, Jareth said:

Well he is, and has often been described and self identified as a Libertarian - but that's just a matter of fact, so don't let that get in the way of your opinions

Trump was often described as not sexist or racist. By sexists and racists who didn’t want to admit to being sexist and racist. 

Johnson is a word removed and when he dies I’ll raise a glass of ale in celebration. Same with Patel, Hunt, Hancock, JRM, May, Gove, Jenrick etc... the whole rancid lot of them deserve to suffer. 

[Jareth]

11 minutes ago, Ingram85 said:

Trump was often described as not sexist or racist. By sexists and racists who didn’t want to admit to being sexist and racist. 

Johnson is a word removed and when he dies I’ll raise a glass of ale in celebration. Same with Patel, Hunt, Hancock, JRM, May, Gove, Jenrick etc... the whole rancid lot of them deserve to suffer. 

I really dislike Johnson too - but I don't know what the suspicion is of his motives - the guy runs a majority of MPs who will take him down if he oversteps the mark on 'liberties', they've been biting at him for a while - your average Tory voter will not put up with it either - so I'm confused what detractors think his end game is on confiscating people's freedoms, we'll be opened up as we used to be when the time is right IMHO. 

Also - see Tory attacks on Drakeford in Wales - the same attack line moaning about having freedoms taken unnecesarily - Drakeford and Johnson - opposite ends of the spectrum - same criticism. 

Edited March 24, 2021 by Jareth

[blandy]

7 minutes ago, Jareth said:

the guy runs a majority of MPs who will take him down if he oversteps the mark on 'liberties',

He doesn't have any deep convictions at all, as far as I can see. He may have some level of instinct as you say, for the state not "interfering" - I think that's fair comment. But the overriding thing about him is he's a duplicitous devious lying clearing in the woods. He'll say anything, no matter the complete lack of truth of it. So you have to judge him by what he does, not what he says. And there, you can see that his actions are not libertarian. They're the opposite.

These virus powers he's snaffled. It'll be hard to get rid of them.

[Jareth]

3 minutes ago, blandy said:

He doesn't have any deep convictions at all, as far as I can see. He may have some level of instinct as you say, for the state not "interfering" - I think that's fair comment. But the overriding thing about him is he's a duplicitous devious lying clearing in the woods. He'll say anything, no matter the complete lack of truth of it. So you have to judge him by what he does, not what he says. And there, you can see that his actions are not libertarian. They're the opposite.

These virus powers he's snaffled. It'll be hard to get rid of them.

Agree on his shapeshifting - but still don't know what the long term master plan on stealing freedoms is - the natural checks and balances of the Tories is already in motion..

 

[bickster]

There's very little the Tory Party has ever done that I'd describe as Libertarian

[blandy]

1 minute ago, bickster said:

There's very little the Tory Party has ever done that I'd describe as Libertarian

Cameron's gay marriage thing, I think starts the long list of, er, let me see now at least 1 things in total, now the count's in. 

[Jareth]

5 minutes ago, bickster said:

There's very little the Tory Party has ever done that I'd describe as Libertarian

I thought it meant shrinking the state and letting the free market do what it wants? Seems pretty Tory to me. 

[sidcow]

I get that the EU are angry they're not getting the AZ doses they wanted and ordered, but what are they going to do with them? 

They've got massive buffer stocks already from the refusing to give it to old people and the its dangerous shenanigans. Now it appears lots of people are refusing to take it.  I just don't get what they want to do with all the doses other than stockpile them and let them rot. 

It's massively ironic that they keep casting envious eyes at our vaccination progress, yet keep rubbishing to the point of destroying the chance of using the very same thing that have got us here. 

Edited March 24, 2021 by sidcow

[Mic09]

28 minutes ago, blandy said:

Cameron's gay marriage thing, I think starts the long list of, er, let me see now at least 1 things in total, now the count's in. 

Allowing Gay marriage by legislation is not libertarian.

A libertarian thing to do would be to take the government out of the picture when it comes to any kind of marriage - government can neither allow nor disallow it, it just wouldn't have any say in it.

So I guess that brings your total down to 0

[bickster]

48 minutes ago, Jareth said:

I thought it meant shrinking the state and letting the free market do what it wants? Seems pretty Tory to me. 

That is a facet of both Libertarianism and Neo-Liberalism but there are divergences. I think you'll find most right-wing Tories are Neoliberals not Libertarians. Neoliberals are generally for more state intervention than Libertarians

Neolibs in the Tory Party, yep, there are some

Libertarians in the Tory Party, not really many at all

Judging Johnson by his actions alone, he's neither. He's a populist who'll say anything that he thinks will gain him what he wants. He has no driving philosophy

[sidcow]

If ONLY there was a politics thread

[mjmooney]

'Left/libertarian' and 'right/libertarian' are different animals.

Same with 'left/authoritarian' and 'right/authoritarian'. 

[Jareth]

I blame the French

[bickster]

13 minutes ago, Jareth said:

I blame the French

Yep, no vaccines of their own

[sidcow]

27 minutes ago, Jareth said:

I blame the French

No wonder they've got a coronavirus problem when they all go round kissing each other twice.