Wesley Moraes

[Keyblade]

17 minutes ago, KentVillan said:

I know plenty of fans here are just genuinely concerned about his progress.

But there is a hint with a few of wanting to be the first ones to call it - three games in and "Wesley will be a flop, you mark my words" kind of attitude. I think football fans turn on players far too quickly. We have no idea what's going on behind the scenes.

Dean Smith watched this lad at Brugge and starts him every single week for Villa. So when people are looking around for his playing strengths and trying to find examples of his contribution, it isn't us making "excuses" for him, it's us trying to work out what Smith's thinking is. Smith is not a stupid man, and nor is he afraid to switch things up, so I don't buy the idea that DS has just completely ****ed up this signing and is now sticking to his guns because he spent £22m on him.

Strikers come in all shapes and sizes. You don't need to be good in the air, or fast, or able to skin a defender in a one-on-one, or able to pluck the ball out of the sky with your eyes closed. You do obviously need to have something about you, but there are plenty of strikers who have built successful top flight careers around a very limited skillset.

I agree things are looking a bit bleak at the moment, but it is possible that Wesley will just be one of those players who is awful to watch, but somehow delivers the goods. And no, that isn't an "excuse" - he could also end up being a flop. I'd just rather call it at the end of the season.

 

This is exactly it. They want their initial gut instinct to be proven right and they won't budge regardless of what happens, and will amplify anything that supports their initial assessment. It's tiring, and puerile.

[KenjiOgiwara]

Ironically you could not be more wrong. If you actually read the thread his biggest critics supported him from the start. 

Every single Villa fan wants our record purchase to work out. Unfortunately even Ray Charles could see we've bought a dud. No point trying to make him out to be something he'll never become. It's not a case of settling in, gelling with the side or gaining confidence. He simply has no talent for what's required. In fact looking at him play he looks so akward you feel it's an Ali Dia story all over again. 

[troon_villan]

25 minutes ago, KenjiOgiwara said:

Ironically you could not be more wrong. If you actually read the thread his biggest critics supported him from the start. 

Every single Villa fan wants our record purchase to work out. Unfortunately even Ray Charles could see we've bought a dud. No point trying to make him out to be something he'll never become. It's not a case of settling in, gelling with the side or gaining confidence. He simply has no talent for what's required. In fact looking at him play he looks so akward you feel it's an Ali Dia story all over again. 

Wow

[Keyblade]

41 minutes ago, KenjiOgiwara said:

Ironically you could not be more wrong. If you actually read the thread his biggest critics supported him from the start. 

Every single Villa fan wants our record purchase to work out. Unfortunately even Ray Charles could see we've bought a dud. No point trying to make him out to be something he'll never become. It's not a case of settling in, gelling with the side or gaining confidence. He simply has no talent for what's required. In fact looking at him play he looks so akward you feel it's an Ali Dia story all over again. 

It's 15 games my man. Declaring him a definite dud is literally proving my point.

[Tomaszk]

2 hours ago, Keyblade said:

This is exactly it. They want their initial gut instinct to be proven right and they won't budge regardless of what happens, and will amplify anything that supports their initial assessment. It's tiring, and puerile.

Plenty have broken down and explained reasons why they think he's not good enough. Perhaps some have just said "he's crap" and not explained it, that's poor form.

This is Andre Green last season all over again though. He looked terrible in nearly every appearance. People got upset when others said it "not backing players" blah blah. I wanted him to do well! Support is always there at our matches. But he was clearly not good enough. Yes even after the Sheffield Utd header he wasn't good enough. 

I don't care if Wes doesn't score another goal this season if he lifts his performance and starts contributing to our play regularly. We'll batter teams and he'll be a welcome name of the team sheet.

[Chindie]

It's a few things.

Wesley arrived as a young Brazilian prospect bought for a club record fee (even if that record is completely dwarfed by many these days), and perhaps worse, a striker. A big striker whose Belgian highlights showed him powering through defences. The natural reaction as a fan is to be a bit excited - club record 22 year old Brazilian powerhouses striker? **** yeah!

But then he's arrived and he's not blown anyone away. The fall from that hype and hope is tangible, and opens him up to getting a little more stick than he might have got had he been a 22 year old Swiss striker who was ok.

His performances and attitude rub people the wrong way and make it easy to hate him. On the pitch he's struggled to impact games (mostly not his fault imo), at times has been lazy, he doesn't play like an out and out forward, wanting to drop deep (not long ago he was a midfielder), he's been unable to use his strength and size (again, not entirely his fault), he initially was very bad at the South American trademark playacting, and worst of all he's a moody bastard. His surly attitude on the pitch makes him ready to hate - I don't like it, at all. He whinges and moans, looks like a bulldog sucking a wasp soaked in vinegar, waves his arms around in exasperation... It's hard to like that. Couple that to him not blowing the league away and often not playing that well makes turning on him really, really easy

[Keyblade]

12 minutes ago, Tomaszk said:

Plenty have broken down and explained reasons why they think he's not good enough. Perhaps some have just said "he's crap" and not explained it, that's poor form.

This is Andre Green last season all over again though. He looked terrible in nearly every appearance. People got upset when others said it "not backing players" blah blah. I wanted him to do well! Support is always there at our matches. But he was clearly not good enough. Yes even after the Sheffield Utd header he wasn't good enough. 

I don't care if Wes doesn't score another goal this season if he lifts his performance and starts contributing to our play regularly. We'll batter teams and he'll be a welcome name of the team sheet.

I'm not referring to criticism, God knows I have my fair share of them. He hasn't exactly pulled up trees. I'm talking about those saying he's a wash and we wasted 22m and we should sell etc etc. It doesn't make sense. We're not even halfway through his first season in English football.

[Laughable Chimp]

Been looking at Wesley's shot map and noticed that aside from the Newcastle game, the last good chance he's actually had for us was more than 2 months ago. Tbf to him, I do think a big reason for that is the quality of opposition we're going up against. But still, other players have been scoring goals in that period too.

So I decided to have a look at the shot maps of our other forwards in that same period.

El Ghazi has about 2 at least good chances to score from, the Newcastle free kick which he scored from, and a near sitter at the start of the second half of the Brighton game which he missed.

Trezeguet had 2 and scored both of them, the goal at Chelsea and the free kick at Liverpool.

Grealish had like 2, the goal at Brighton and the missed sitter at Man United

No real point, just thought it was interesting. Tbf to him, he really hasn't gotten much worthwhile chances to score from and he just isn't a striker who is going to score lots of difficult goals. I hope after the Leicester game, we get to see more dangerous chances drop to him.

Edited December 6, 2019 by Laughable Chimp

[Pelle]

1 hour ago, Tomaszk said:

Plenty have broken down and explained reasons why they think he's not good enough. Perhaps some have just said "he's crap" and not explained it, that's poor form.

This is Andre Green last season all over again though. He looked terrible in nearly every appearance. People got upset when others said it "not backing players" blah blah. I wanted him to do well! Support is always there at our matches. But he was clearly not good enough. Yes even after the Sheffield Utd header he wasn't good enough. 

I don't care if Wes doesn't score another goal this season if he lifts his performance and starts contributing to our play regularly. We'll batter teams and he'll be a welcome name of the team sheet.

Criticism is fair. To say that he's not getting into the box often enough is fair, IMO. I think he's quite often coming too far down in the pitch. I mean, he works hard to get the ball, but should leave it to the mid's and defenders. Saying he's struggling to trap the ball is also fair. He can do a lot better there. And a few other things. But it's quite frequently you can read that he's just shite and just isn't a football player, and that's just nonsense. And when some say that they don't care if he scores plenty of goals from now on he's shite anyway, then you know that he's not getting a fair chance. That's just ridicilous.

I don't think it was a misstake not to sign another striker, I think they tried but it didn't happen. But we definetley need one. At least one. Kodija isn't good enough and Davis is injured. We ca't even give him a breather. He could do with some rest and to get some burden off his shoulders. But he can't get it atm.

[villalad21]

30 minutes ago, Laughable Chimp said:

Been looking at Wesley's shot map and noticed that aside from the Newcastle game, the last good chance he's actually had for us was more than 2 months ago.

Because he is barely ever in the box.

He is constantly dropping deep doing nothing.

[useless]

Only Wood, Mount, Jesus, Aubameyang, Mané, Firmino, Salah, Rashford, Jiménez, Pukki, Abraham, and Vardy have had more shots on target than him in the premier league this season, most ot those would cost £50m plus if you tried to sign them. As we move into some fixtures where we're more likely to see more of the ball and get more chances I've no doubt that he will see him get more chances and hopefully more goals.

[KenjiOgiwara]

10 minutes ago, useless said:

Only Wood, Mount, Jesus, Aubameyang, Mané, Firmino, Salah, Rashford, Jiménez, Pukki, Abraham, and Vardy have had more shots on target than him in the premier league this season, most ot those would cost £50m plus if you tried to sign them. As we move into some fixtures where we're more likely to see more of the ball and get more chances I've no doubt that he will see him get more chances and hopefully more goals.

So while you're at it, where are we in the list for the most chances created? 

[Laughable Chimp]

22 minutes ago, useless said:

Only Wood, Mount, Jesus, Aubameyang, Mané, Firmino, Salah, Rashford, Jiménez, Pukki, Abraham, and Vardy have had more shots on target than him in the premier league this season, most ot those would cost £50m plus if you tried to sign them. As we move into some fixtures where we're more likely to see more of the ball and get more chances I've no doubt that he will see him get more chances and hopefully more goals.

He's also played like, either a lot more minutes that most of the guys on there, or scored significantly less goals and assists than the guys on there.

-Wesley has played 300 more minutes than wood and Wood has 2 more goals, he also wouldn't cost 50 million plus.

-500 more minutes than Jesus who has 1 goal and 1 more assist than him.

-Aubameyang has scored 6 goals more than him.

-Mane has 5 more goals and 3 more assists than him.

-Firmino has  3 more assists with a 100 less minutes.

Salah has 2 more goals and 2 more assists in 300 less minutes.

Rashford has 5 more goals and 3 more assists

Jiminez has 2 more goals and 2 more assists

-Pukki has 4 more goals and 3 more assists, wouldn't cost 50 million plus.

-Abraham 7 more goals and 2 more assists

-Vardy, yeah you get the picture.

 

Edited December 6, 2019 by Laughable Chimp

[useless]

You rather make my point for me, you'd have to pay mega money for all of those players, even Pukki and Wood would cost a lot more than we have paid for Wesley, so of course they're are more likely to be out performing him. Maybe that's the problem, people expecting him to perform to the levels of a players with a much bigger valuation than him, if we want that we'd have to pay the money, because the £22m that we paid for Wesley doesn't guarantee it.

[Farlz]

Quote

Dean Smith has revealed what £22m striker Wesley needs to work on, while insisting: "His all-round game is not all about goals."

The big Brazilian has been in for some real flak by sets of Aston Villa supporters following a barren run of seven games without a goal.

Wesley, 23, didn't register a single shot - on or off-target - at Stamford Bridge on Wednesday while, in recent fixtures, has found it increasingly difficult up top on his own.

Following the midweek defeat, Smith leapt to the defence of his star striker by saying it's all still too early to judge.

However, amid recent criticism fired towards Wesley on social media, the head coach reiterated there's no pressure whatsoever on his front man.

"The pressure is from the outside," Smith explained with an air of annoyance, "it’s not from Bodymoor Heath or the dressing room. He’s a popular figure, and came here with a lot of potential and promise. He’s still trying to fulfil that potential.

"Villa supporters want to see honest, hard-working players, and he’s one of those. He’s likeable in the dressing room but, unfortunately when you get a big price tag on your shoulders, people expect you to score a lot of goals. We won’t judge him too early.

"I was getting these questions asked after five or six games, then he scored twice against Norwich and, all of a sudden, he’s a snip at £22m, then he goes through a spell of not scoring and suddenly he’s £2m. You can’t win."

Smith, meanwhile, pointed to the likes of other big-money Premier League strikers who are behind four-goal Wesley in the scoring charts.

"There’s a lot of centre-forwards who’ve had a lot of money spent on them this season and he’s probably scored more than them," he said. "His all round game is not all about goals.

"You hear me talk a lot about expected goals, and we’re in the top six of expected goal charts. For me, we have to improve defensively."

And while BirminghamLive understands Villa aren't expected to spend big in January on reinforcements, head coach Smith continued to bat away claims his side need another striker to ease the burden currently placed on Wesley.

"Not really," Smith replied when asked if he could do with another front man, "if you bring someone else in, he’s going to want to play. We've brought in a £22m player, and not play him?

"We’re quite happy with his performances, he’s had some poor games and some really good games. What we’re looking for is a more consistent level.

"Aerially, in the week, he won 12 out of 15 duels. What he’s not doing is getting on the end of crosses, but his all-round game is OK.

"We have a number of games till we get to January, there’s no complaints in the dressing room or coaching room, the only thing to add is more goals.

"I envisaged him playing most of the games, I’d hoped he’d score more goals than he’s got. But as long as he’s contributing to the team."

As for Wesley, Smith told BirminghamLive that the likes of Ole Gunnar Sjolksjaer and Frank Lampard believe Villa have a real player on their hands.

"I go into the manager's rooms after games, at Man U they’re saying, 'He's a handful.' Frank Lampard said the same at Chelsea. Opposition managers know, the likes of your Lindelhofs, Zoumas, Maguires and Christiansens are having tough games.

"We always want more, but the players trust him and that’s the most important thing."

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/aston-villa-chelsea-wesley-smith-17378783

[Keyblade]

Couldn't think of a more measured response if I tried, echoing exactly what people were guessing he's been thinking as well as @useless' sentiment that it's in defence where we need to improve more.

[TRO]

9 hours ago, useless said:

I'm not bashing anyone, all I've stated are facts you only have to look at the league table to see that, that same league table will also tell you that it's conceding goals that's losing us games, not a lack of scoring goals. Also any number of clubs in the division could say that if they had a decent striker they'd be in this and that position, and most of those clubs will have also scored less goals than us. Wesley isn't the main problem, we've conceded two goals or more in nine of our fifteen premier league games this season, and have dropped ten points from conceding goals in the last ten minutes of games, that's what's costing us, it doesn't matter who we have upfront we going to struggle leaking goals like that.

You are much to clever for this board.....and that is not me being patronising.

its agonisingly obvious.....The whole team can't defend.

It will cost us, if the people that matter can't fix it.......we had all this with RDM.

Edited December 6, 2019 by TRO

[TRO]

5 hours ago, Keyblade said:

This is exactly it. They want their initial gut instinct to be proven right and they won't budge regardless of what happens, and will amplify anything that supports their initial assessment. It's tiring, and puerile.

and its not just Wesley who has succumbed to such treatment......check the history.

[useless]

I've acually been wondering that myself recently, I think I sometimes forget that I have a better footballing mind than most, and am sometimes too harsh with people, and should appreciate that not everyone understands football like me. And by the way not showing off, as sadly knowing a lot about football isn't the most usual thing, wish I was good at something else.

[Pelle]

3 minutes ago, useless said:

I've acually been wondering that myself recently, I think I sometimes forget that I have a better footballing mind than most, and am sometimes too harsh with people, and should appreciate that not everyone understands football like me. And by the way not showing off, as sadly knowing a lot about football isn't the most usual thing, wish I was good at something else.

I wish I was good at something.