PaulC Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 1 minute ago, blandy said: Burning a Nazi flag? or a confederate flag? I just talking about the incident in London nothing else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NurembergVillan Posted June 9, 2020 Moderator Share Posted June 9, 2020 50 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: It’s a truly fascinating subject isn’t it. Absolutely agree, the Berlin Wall needed to come down. Except, not all of it has. For all the oppression and death, they’ve kept some but as an educational piece. Just as they have Russian tanks on plinths in the centre of Berlin. It’s too much about context to have a one size fits all rule. We need to rapidly address some wrongs whilst avoiding cultural purges. Similarly in Nuremberg, the Rally Grounds are still there including the famous platform Hitler would speak from. I've climbed up it and stood on that very spot. It now gets used for things Hitler perhaps wouldn't approve of, such as music festivals and Sunday morning roller-blading. They debated demolishing it, and whilst the eagle statues were ripped from the top they decided it should stand as a reminder of what happened (with no upkeep), and allowed to erode in its own time. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 44 minutes ago, PaulC said: Its not but you have to have respect for the country you live otherwise what do you have... Independence? I get the point, it can be emotive. But it is just a flag, a sheet of nylon, most likely printed in China, very possibly bought in a novelty. There is a symbolism to it, I get that. But that would suggest we shouldn’t let China mass produce them. It would also suggest we should ban people writing ‘Nobby’s World Tour’ across the horizontal bar of a St George’s cross. You can tie yourself up in knots getting too carried away with physical symbols. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 1 hour ago, LondonLax said: What about when that property is a statue rather than a flag? Clearly we are talking about whether it is acceptable to damage property we don’t own if we decide we don’t like it. I think @ml1dch covered it, really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 Why should you need 'respect' for a country? Respect the laws, cultures, regulations. But the country itself? Why? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 51 minutes ago, LondonLax said: Exactly, so this is why there is nuance and a lot of discussion to be had. Tbf, the context of the discussion that was being had was about a blanket no to the burning of a flag. My response is simply that if it's x's flag then x should have the right to dispose of it as x sees fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulC Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 6 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: Independence? I get the point, it can be emotive. But it is just a flag, a sheet of nylon, most likely printed in China, very possibly bought in a novelty. There is a symbolism to it, I get that. But that would suggest we shouldn’t let China mass produce them. It would also suggest we should ban people writing ‘Nobby’s World Tour’ across the horizontal bar of a St George’s cross. You can tie yourself up in knots getting too carried away with physical symbols. It does nothing to help the cause, in fact it hinders it. The peaceful protesters should condemn it and then they might get more sympathy and attitudes can change. But instances like that wind people up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 Anybody got any favourite flags? Bhutan and Barbados always stand out for me, along with Wales, obvs. Always feel a little bit sad for those countries that have settled on a combination of red, white and blue stripes. Not super imaginative. I’d stick them all together in the Olympic parade to see how many people could spot the difference between Russia, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Costa Rica, Paraguay, Thailand, Slovakia, Slovenia, Croatia... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyjsg Posted June 9, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted June 9, 2020 10 minutes ago, NurembergVillan said: Similarly in Nuremberg, the Rally Grounds are still there including the famous platform Hitler would speak from. I've climbed up it and stood on that very spot. It now gets used for things Hitler perhaps wouldn't approve of, such as music festivals and Sunday morning roller-blading. They debated demolishing it, and whilst the eagle statues were ripped from the top they decided it should stand as a reminder of what happened (with no upkeep), and allowed to erode in its own time. The park is stunning, I had a jog round it before I realised what the location was as was staying nearby when I did Challenge Roth a few years back 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 Free Tommy Robinson, attacks on police. Where was the condemnation from the same people condemning the minority of protestors nationwide for being violent? (Farage et al) it's almost as if, they're not sincere and they're just a bit racist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post chrisp65 Posted June 9, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted June 9, 2020 (edited) 10 minutes ago, PaulC said: It does nothing to help the cause, in fact it hinders it. The peaceful protesters should condemn it and then they might get more sympathy and attitudes can change. But instances like that wind people up. On the presumption we’re talking about the cause of racism and equality. Hundreds of years of peaceful protest and its never quite the right time, never quite the moment. 24 hours of mild agitation and suddenly things are changing here and there. The peaceful protest did condemn it, to suggest or demand otherwise is a bit sad at this point in time, a bit diversionary. I’ve a feeling that’s all some are after, a swift return to the ‘peaceful’ status quo where we can tell people there isn’t an issue or it isn’t the right time or covid prevents us taking action or brexit prevents us taking action or whatever the next excuse is. If chucking a couple of statues in the sea causes wider understanding and makes Us take a small step forward, bring it on. I’d lose a flag and a bronze for greater equality, no brainer.. Edited June 9, 2020 by chrisp65 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyjsg Posted June 9, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted June 9, 2020 3 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: Free Tommy Robinson, attacks on police. Where was the condemnation from the same people condemning the minority of protestors nationwide for being violent? (Farage et al) it's almost as if, they're not sincere and they're just a bit racist. It also works the other way though, I watch in disgust at some of the videos from the last week of the police battering the peaceful protesters, but then look at this (less peaceful for sure) and have the exact opposite feelings 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulC Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 3 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: On the presumption we’re talking about the cause of racism and equality. Hundreds of years of peaceful protest and its never quite the right time, never quite the moment. 24 hours of mild agitation and suddenly things are changing here and there. The peaceful protest did condemn it, to suggest or demand otherwise is a bit sad at this point in time, a bit diversionary. I’ve a feeling that’s all some are after, a swift return to the ‘peaceful’ status quo where we can tell people there isn’t an issue or it isn’t the right time or covid prevents us taking action or brexit prevents us taking action or whatever the next excuse is. If chucking a couple of statues in the sea causes wider understanding and makes Us take a small step forward, bring it on. I’d lose a flag and a bronze for greater equality, no brainer.. The Govt are terrified, we'll in the middle of a pandemic, the economy is going down the swanny they will do anything to keep the peace right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 25 minutes ago, NurembergVillan said: They debated demolishing it, and whilst the eagle statues were ripped from the top they decided it should stand as a reminder of what happened (with no upkeep), and allowed to erode in its own time. The Germans left Russian graffiti in the Reichstag as they think the lesson is more important than bruised pride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 4 minutes ago, PaulC said: The Govt are terrified, we'll in the middle of a pandemic, the economy is going down the swanny they will do anything to keep the peace right now. They wouldn’t even sack Cummings when he single handed dismantled all the ‘work’ they’d done. Perhaps Johnson could buy some water cannon. Well, maybe just employ a vacuum cleaner company to invent a new one at least. I don’t see the government declaring war on anti racism protests any time soon. Unless by ‘anything’ you mean start up a short sharp genuine open debate and then be seen to take some action this calendar year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 Terrified they will lose power, that's it. They don't care about you and me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulC Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 5 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: Terrified they will lose power, that's it. They don't care about you and me. Yes spot on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 1 hour ago, tonyh29 said: Pains me to say it , but I think @StefanAVFC comments is the correct answer I think you're taking the flag thing far too literally , If one person in isolation tries to burn a flag as part of what they feel is a legitimate protest , I think their symbolic protest is kinda loosely acceptable ,I don't think it will lead to disorder and anarchy ..... if they were joining ISIS and burning flags then No , that isn't acceptable ... but there is a big difference 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted June 9, 2020 Author Share Posted June 9, 2020 1 hour ago, tonyh29 said: Pains me to say it , but I think @StefanAVFC comments is the correct answer I think you're taking the flag thing far too literally , If one person in isolation tries to burn a flag as part of what they feel is a legitimate protest , I think their symbolic protest is kinda loosely acceptable ,I don't think it will lead to disorder and anarchy ..... if they were joining ISIS and burning flags then No , that isn't acceptable ... but there is a big difference But what if a white man burns a African flag? That opens up another racist debate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Demitri_C said: But what if a white man burns a African flag? That opens up another racist debate Depends on how and why he is burning it ... If he's protesting against the regime of Wakanda I doubt there would be much said , if he was burning it because the people of Wakanda were black then clearly he's protesting on grounds of race and should be dealt with the same way I'd expect any other race crime to be dealt with . Edited June 9, 2020 by tonyh29 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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