Racism Part two

[MessiWillSignForVilla]

4 hours ago, foreveryoung said:

It stopped in the early 17th century yeah? 300 years then sorry, although hardly makes a difference. It's a good job the Jews don't hold such grudges, although I guess you will tell me that is different because.......

With a post like this I feel it's important to point out that there are people living in America today whose Grandparents and possibly Parents (though I think that would be an outlier) were born into slavery. It is so recent, there are voice recordings of former slaves, there is video of former slaves talking about their experiences. The last known known person born in to slavery in the US died in the 70s! And that's not even touching on the long lasting effects of slavery and the damage that resistance to things like reconstruction caused.

This is not some ancient thing that is way in the past, it is very recent and has very real impacts on modern America.

Hell, slavery isn't even fully illegal in the US! The 13th Amendment explicitly exempts the US penal system from the abolition of slavery. Just a coincidence then that the US has the highest incarceration rate in the world which disproportionally affects/targets black Americans.

[a m ole]

14 minutes ago, MessiWillSignForVilla said:

With a post like this I feel it's important to point out that there are people living in America today whose Grandparents and possibly Parents (though I think that would be an outlier) were born into slavery. It is so recent, there are voice recordings of former slaves, there is video of former slaves talking about their experiences. The last known known person born in to slavery in the US died in the 70s! And that's not even touching on the long lasting effects of slavery and the damage that resistance to things like reconstruction caused.

This is not some ancient thing that is way in the past, it is very recent and has very real impacts on modern America.

Hell, slavery isn't even fully illegal in the US! The 13th Amendment explicitly exempts the US penal system from the abolition of slavery. Just a coincidence then that the US has the highest incarceration rate in the world which disproportionally affects/targets black Americans.

Jim Crow laws ended the same year the Rolling Stones released Satisfaction.

[Mark Albrighton]

25 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said:

Yeah, it is a tricky subject and it can be a little exhausting to think about sometimes. But it's interesting to discuss, and I'm not asking these questions to try and catch you out. Just trying to understand where and why your perspective differs from my own.

Would you mind expanding on why consider "yellow face" unacceptable? To me the Indian example you gave in the post is much closer to the black analogy given the history of empire in India - it wasn't quite slavery, but there was still a lot of oppression going around. I think there's good reasons why a British man playing an Indian would be unacceptable, particularly when many of the people involved in the Raj were still alive. At least with slavery people are arguing about what our ancestors did to one another and we're all several steps removed from it.

However the reason I picked Japan as one of the examples in the first case is that mainland Japan has historically never been invaded and they're also a rich developed nation in the modern day, so the same unfortunate overtones of historical (or modern) inferiority that apply to a lot of cultures don't really apply. China suffered a bit more humiliation in the time of empire but they're an older civilisation than us and a more powerful country in this day and age, so to some extent you can say the same about them. So what is it that makes it offensive for a white person to do yellow face, but not the reverse?

I suppose on some of level, if a person changes their skin tone to portray another race, I think that’s racist. Regardless of whether they’ve held their own in terms of empires and the like over the centuries.

I can’t give a good reason why a Japanese person doing “white face” wouldn’t be problematic in the same way as a white person doing “yellow face”. Frankly, I would have to see an instance of the former to get some sense of it. I’ve literally googled a few variations of “yellow face reverse”, “white face Japanese” (that one unsurprisingly giving me a load of Geisha women). I can’t find any.

Watch this. This film is literally a cultural landmark. It’s not some dodgy sketch I dug out. Can you honestly say you don’t find this problematic or that you can’t see why a Japanese person might find this racist?

This was subsequently re-evaluated over the years and from what I read one of the DVD’s has it’s own feature discussing how Japanese were offended by this. Both Mickey Rooney and the director Blake Edwards were regretful on this.

That was one of the most egregious examples, but there are plenty of others. When I’ve searched a lot of stuff relating to Hollywood is to do with white actors being cast in lead roles where perhaps they shouldn’t be. 

I would genuinely like to see the equivalent of a Japanese actor portraying a white westerner. I’d be really curious as to what that would look like and how (if at all) jarring it would be.

[Chindie]

2 minutes ago, Mark Albrighton said:

I would genuinely like to see the equivalent of a Japanese actor portraying a white westerner. I’d be really curious as to what that would look like and how (if at all) jarring it would be.

Cloud Atlas.

The nature of the story and it's themes means the film has a number of characters switch ethnicity through the movie, including a Korean actress portraying a Western woman. It's somewhat misguided, misjudged, and a number of people pointed out how unsettling and bizarre it is, but it's there. The fact it ties into the theme (Cloud Atlas is essentially 6 stories that cross over time, genre etc, but it becomes clear that the varying characters are basically the same 'souls' living through different lives...) meant it probably escaped the backlash.

Compare to something like the Ghost in the Shell live action movie, where Scarlett Johansson played a character that many felt should be a Japanese woman, and the backslash that got. Which was actually arguably even worse in the context of the film as (spoilers for Ghost in the Shell...)

Spoiler

the plot makes it clear that Johansson is literally a dead Japanese girl in a synthetic body that happens to look like Scarlett Johansson, meaning not only did that role not go to a Japanese actress, the canon of the film effectively is Johansson deleted a Japanese woman.

 

[Stevo985]

1 hour ago, a m ole said:

Jim Crow laws ended the same year the Rolling Stones released Satisfaction.

I knew The Rolling Stones had been around a while but it's mad that they released that album 400 years ago

[Jon]

4 hours ago, HanoiVillan said:

Show them some headlines from the 'cat bin lady' story

Or the recent episode where a (white) teacher lost her job for slapping a horse in the face.  

[Mark Albrighton]

7 hours ago, Chindie said:

Cloud Atlas.

The nature of the story and it's themes means the film has a number of characters switch ethnicity through the movie, including a Korean actress portraying a Western woman. It's somewhat misguided, misjudged, and a number of people pointed out how unsettling and bizarre it is, but it's there. The fact it ties into the theme (Cloud Atlas is essentially 6 stories that cross over time, genre etc, but it becomes clear that the varying characters are basically the same 'souls' living through different lives...) meant it probably escaped the backlash.

Compare to something like the Ghost in the Shell live action movie, where Scarlett Johansson played a character that many felt should be a Japanese woman, and the backslash that got. Which was actually arguably even worse in the context of the film as (spoilers for Ghost in the Shell...)

  Reveal hidden contents

the plot makes it clear that Johansson is literally a dead Japanese girl in a synthetic body that happens to look like Scarlett Johansson, meaning not only did that role not go to a Japanese actress, the canon of the film effectively is Johansson deleted a Japanese woman.

 

Thanks for that Chindie. I’ve seen a picture of the actor as a white American. I haven’t seen a clip, to hear her speak in the role. 

My initial reaction is it looks a bit awkward and judging from your post the whole project sounds a bit awkward. I heard about characters living different lives at different times, hadn’t heard about the ethnic free for all. 

I suppose ultimately, my thoughts on this are similar to that of black people doing white face. Japanese people doing “white face”, as far as I can tell, doesn’t have a questionable and varied history. It doesn’t have the same issues of white people playing Fu Manchu (Chinese), for example. 

Edited February 14, 2022 by Mark Albrighton

[a m ole]

7 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

I knew The Rolling Stones had been around a while but it's mad that they released that album 400 years ago

[mjmooney]

9 hours ago, Panto_Villan said:

I think there's good reasons why a British man playing an Indian would be unacceptable, particularly when many of the people involved in the Raj were still alive.

There were some grumbles about Ben Kingsley playing Gandhi - but mainly based on his name. He was actually born Krishna Pandit Bhanji (his dad was Gujurati). 

[Mark Albrighton]

12 minutes ago, mjmooney said:

There were some grumbles about Ben Kingsley playing Gandhi - but mainly based on his name. He was actually born Krishna Pandit Bhanji (his dad was Gujurati). 

I always thought Michael Bates playing an Indian in “It ain’t half hot mum” was an interesting one.

[MakemineVanilla]

8 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

I knew The Rolling Stones had been around a while but it's mad that they released that album 400 years ago

They were around for years before they got famous and wrote a hit for Oswald Mosley called, I Can't Get No Fascist Faction.

[mjmooney]

Speaking of the Stones, I believe they no longer play 'Brown Sugar', due to the nature of the lyrics. 

I was thinking about this the other day, when I happened to be playing Del Amitri's 'Waking Hours' album. 'Nothing Ever Happens' was a top 20 single in 1990, and got loads of radio play, despite having a lyric ("They'll burn down the synagogues at six o'clock, and we'll all go along like before") that definitely wouldn't fly nowadays - even though in context it was clearly ironic, and a condemnation of the 'turn a blind eye' mindset. 

[bannedfromHandV]

20 minutes ago, mjmooney said:

Speaking of the Stones, I believe they no longer play 'Brown Sugar', due to the nature of the lyrics. 

I was thinking about this the other day, when I happened to be playing Del Amitri's 'Waking Hours' album. 'Nothing Ever Happens' was a top 20 single in 1990, and got loads of radio play, despite having a lyric ("They'll burn down the synagogues at six o'clock, and we'll all go along like before") that definitely wouldn't fly nowadays - even though in context it was clearly ironic, and a condemnation of the 'turn a blind eye' mindset. 

Del Amitri made an album? Always thought they were a one hit wonder 

[choffer]

37 minutes ago, mjmooney said:

Speaking of the Stones, I believe they no longer play 'Brown Sugar', due to the nature of the lyrics. 

I was thinking about this the other day, when I happened to be playing Del Amitri's 'Waking Hours' album. 'Nothing Ever Happens' was a top 20 single in 1990, and got loads of radio play, despite having a lyric ("They'll burn down the synagogues at six o'clock, and we'll all go along like before") that definitely wouldn't fly nowadays - even though in context it was clearly ironic, and a condemnation of the 'turn a blind eye' mindset. 

One of the bravest posts I’ve ever seen on VT. That you felt able to admit to listening to a Del Amitri album shows great fortitude and courage and is to be commended. 
 

 

 

 

Edited February 14, 2022 by choffer
I too have fond memories of that album but I’d never tell anyone!

[Panto_Villan]

10 hours ago, Mark Albrighton said:

I suppose on some of level, if a person changes their skin tone to portray another race, I think that’s racist. Regardless of whether they’ve held their own in terms of empires and the like over the centuries.

I can’t give a good reason why a Japanese person doing “white face” wouldn’t be problematic in the same way as a white person doing “yellow face”. Frankly, I would have to see an instance of the former to get some sense of it. I’ve literally googled a few variations of “yellow face reverse”, “white face Japanese” (that one unsurprisingly giving me a load of Geisha women). I can’t find any.

Watch this. This film is literally a cultural landmark. It’s not some dodgy sketch I dug out. Can you honestly say you don’t find this problematic or that you can’t see why a Japanese person might find this racist?

This was subsequently re-evaluated over the years and from what I read one of the DVD’s has it’s own feature discussing how Japanese were offended by this. Both Mickey Rooney and the director Blake Edwards were regretful on this.

That was one of the most egregious examples, but there are plenty of others. When I’ve searched a lot of stuff relating to Hollywood is to do with white actors being cast in lead roles where perhaps they shouldn’t be. 

I would genuinely like to see the equivalent of a Japanese actor portraying a white westerner. I’d be really curious as to what that would look like and how (if at all) jarring it would be.

Oh, I 100% think the video you linked is racist (couldn't watch all the way through it). But they're going full on with every racist Asian stereotype they can find there; it's not simply a white person making themselves appear like an Asian person. Perhaps we've been talking past each other - when I refer to "blackface" (or whiteface / yellowface) I'm talking purely about the act of darkening the skin, not the whole stereotypical racist act that goes along with it. But anyway, we've probably discussed the topic long enough.

Regarding seeing the alternative, yeah, it would be interesting. I guess we'd have to have more knowledge of the local market as it could just be happening out of our view. I imagine there's cases in Chinese or Japanese film history where they have local actors playing people of other nationalities, and maybe a few decades ago they had comedy based purely on racial stereotypes, but I just don't know - it's unlikely to have made its way to our shores. And if it did, I don't even know if we'd fully understand the references and stereotypes given we'd be reliant on subtitles and probably wouldn't be able to pick up on exaggerated accents in the same way as a local.

China is producing a lot of high-budget nationalist war films at the moment (the highest grossing film of all time is about a Korean war battle between China and the US, and was comissioned directly by the Communist party) and I suspect some of them probably stereotype the Western villains just as much as western cinema did for our bad guys a few decades back. I wonder if their portrayal of an evil British villain might end up being more offensive than how Hollywood does it?

Edited February 14, 2022 by Panto_Villan

[mjmooney]

1 hour ago, choffer said:

One of the bravest posts I’ve ever seen on VT. That you felt able to admit to listening to a Del Amitri album shows great fortitude and courage and is to be commended. 

Haha. I think 'Waking Hours' and 'Change Everything' are both fantastic albums. What's not to like? 

[Panto_Villan]

10 hours ago, Chindie said:

Cloud Atlas.

The nature of the story and it's themes means the film has a number of characters switch ethnicity through the movie, including a Korean actress portraying a Western woman. It's somewhat misguided, misjudged, and a number of people pointed out how unsettling and bizarre it is, but it's there. The fact it ties into the theme (Cloud Atlas is essentially 6 stories that cross over time, genre etc, but it becomes clear that the varying characters are basically the same 'souls' living through different lives...) meant it probably escaped the backlash.

Compare to something like the Ghost in the Shell live action movie, where Scarlett Johansson played a character that many felt should be a Japanese woman, and the backslash that got. Which was actually arguably even worse in the context of the film as (spoilers for Ghost in the Shell...)

  Hide contents

the plot makes it clear that Johansson is literally a dead Japanese girl in a synthetic body that happens to look like Scarlett Johansson, meaning not only did that role not go to a Japanese actress, the canon of the film effectively is Johansson deleted a Japanese woman.

 

As a random aside re: Ghost in the Shell, there's an interesting effect in anime where Western people looking at anime usually think the characters are white whereas if you show the same characters to Japanese people they'll think the characters are Japanese (but with dyed blonde hair, etc). Apparently it's because the art style is quite low-detail, apparently, so your mind fills in the blanks with what you consider the default. I actually thought the Ghost in the Shell character was an AI in a robot body rather than being Japanese, but it's a bit tone deaf to cast Johanssen anyway given the setting is Tokyo.

To be honest, I think Cloud Atlas avoided the complaints mainly because it was released in 2012 before the movement really got going. Another example is Altered Carbon, which is all about body-swapping technology. The main character is called Takeshi Kovacs and is half Japanese and half Polish (?), but he's trapped in the body of a white man which he eventually gives back. But there was still a whitewashing outcry when Joel Kinnaman was cast as the lead. At the end of the day angry Twitter warriors aren't particularly interested in context; I'm sure Cloud Atlas would have seen a lot more controversy had it been released 8-10 years later.

[mjmooney]

3 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said:

As a random aside re: Ghost in the Shell, there's an interesting effect in anime where Western people looking at anime usually think the characters are white whereas if you show the same characters to Japanese people they'll think the characters are Japanese (but with dyed blonde hair, etc).

It's always interested me that the stereotyped racial characteristic that westerners associate with far eastern people is 'slitty eyes'. But in anime, the characters almost invariably have exaggeratedly large round eyes. Something interesting going on there, I think. 

[Chindie]

There's a long history of Eastern actors and actresses having plastic surgery to widen their eyes as a way of making themselves more 'bankable'.

[sidcow]

Is it OK to pretend to be Japanese if its so utterly convincing that you would never really know, like this guy?