Racism in Football

[foreveryoung]

56 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

I'm not saying those who don't 'support the movement are racist. I am saying those who actively boo an anti racism gesture are racist. They can hide behind the lie that it's because it's marxist or whatever. but we all know that's bollocks. It just makes them feel better than admitting they hate brown people

Your opinion that's fine, thought there's many who wouldn't agree. 

Ignorance doesn't automatically equal racism, an to call them so is out of order.

 

[QldVilla]

10 minutes ago, a m ole said:

You’re not debating, you’re having a snowflake hissy fit when someone corrects your bullshit. Others here are debating you and you’re failing miserably.

You’re not being cancelled here. You’re completely free to ignore facts, invent links in your head and get red in the face because people are kneeling before a football match. I’m free to laugh at how pathetic and sad that is, and call it out for what it is. 

Of course you would say that, because your not interested in another point of view.

[tomav84]

29 minutes ago, QldVilla said:

That’s your assumption, the average person sees the words, and this is the point and why some supporters are cautious with the gesstures association.

everyone i have spoken to has forgotten they even had those words on the backs of their shirts. we see players kneeling, and we accept the reasons given for players kneeling.

i've not looked up the BLM organisation, i have no idea whether they're marxist or not. i don't even know what marxism means, mainly because whenever i've asked someone they've not been able to explain it to be and i cannot be bothered to look it up myself. and the reason i cannot be bothered to look it up is because as far as i, and every single person i've spoken to about it are concerned, it's completely irrelevant to any argument because i accept the reasons given by those performing the gesture that there is no organisation linked to it...marxist, political or otherwise

it's a peaceful, short, harmless gesture to raise awareness and make a stand against racism...that's it...and some cannot bear to see it. they're not 'cautious', they are quite against it. so they boo. and ironically confirms the exact reason the players have done it in the first place

those that boo are just so **** stupid that they don't even realise if they'd kept their mouths shut and tolerated it for a few months, the gesture would've probably ended by now.

[foreveryoung]

I wouldn't boo myself, but if someone boos close to me next time I'm at the Villa, I'll be asking why they boo.

[Mark Albrighton]

I suggested in here that if the players were kneeling to support and bring awareness to the country’s underprivileged, hungry children…how much would people boo and jeer then? I’m going to go out on a limb and say not much. 

And someone, apologies I forget who, validly pointed out that a campaign with the aim of helping disadvantaged children has far more in common with “Marxism” than a campaign for racial equality.

[foreveryoung]

Some fans just don't want football to be used for these kind of messages and I'd kind of agree with that too.

[Stevo985]

36 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

Your opinion that's fine, thought there's many who wouldn't agree. 

Ignorance doesn't automatically equal racism, an to call them so is out of order.

 

I don't really care if a bunch of racists think I'm out of order for calling them out to be honest. I think I'm on the right side of that fence. **** them.

[tomav84]

18 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

I wouldn't boo myself, but if someone boos close to me next time I'm at the Villa, I'll be asking why they boo.

i've questioned myself what i'd do if someone next to me did it. i feel very passionately about the subject and i'm not sure i could keep my emotions in check and calmly ask the question, and not sure it would end particularly well

[DCJonah]

9 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

Some fans just don't want football to be used for these kind of messages and I'd kind of agree with that too.

I think that's fair enough. But would you really boo if you felt this way?

We seem to be really minimising the actual act of choosing to boo loudly at something. 

I said it before, but how would we view people who boo charity workers or people raising money on the street? Yet for this, we continue to look for reasons to defend and excuse these actions.

[a m ole]

11 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

Some fans just don't want football to be used for these kind of messages and I'd kind of agree with that too.

Here lies the problem though, racism is very evident in football. So if it still sits bubbling under the surface as proved by the fallout from the final, then these messages are entirely necessary.

[blandy]

8 hours ago, QldVilla said:

Well, I like to get information from many different forums, some choose one over the other and there's many different mediums you can get that information from. Your own PM and other political leaders have said they don't agree with taking the knee and that they don't support its use due to its association with BLM. To also quote Wilfred Zaha the first player to stop doing the knee, 'I find it degrading'. Other black players have stopped doing it as well for their own reasons, some quoting they don't like what BLM stands for. The fans don't miss this.

To quote your PM, 'I don't believe in gestures, I believe in action'. Many others have commented on what BLM stands for and to be brutally honest, the players could have chosen any gesture to stand against racism but they followed the one adopted by BLM and had it emblazoned on the back of their jersey's.

They subsequently come out and say it has nothing to do with BLM (to come out and say this automatically entertains the fact that they have identified that some fans don't like the gestures association), but the average person isn't silly, they become more knowledgeable about the BLM mvt, pulling down statues, attacking Police and they don't like it. The old saying, 'if it walks like a duck.....'

At the end of the day some of us like you and me can see that the players are genuine in their reasoning and we can support their stance. Others see this as political gesturing which started from BLM and they don't like it in their sport, why, because if you swallow BLM's narrative, if you are white you are inherently racist and this offends hardworking people/fans.

I'd bet if the players came up with a different gesture and communicated better, there wouldn't be one boo, people would just applaud.

 

The question I asked was "what is "the evidence" that the normal person sees, which counters Gareth Southgate's and the players assertions that it's not to do with the BLM organisation? "

The response you've provided (thanks) in no way provides any evidence at all. The Prime Minister's opinion and the quote of his you provide - is certainly not "evidence that the players actions are to do with the BLM organisation" it's just the opinion of a man (renowned for lying and for using racist slurs).

Wilf Zaha deciding to stop -  he said he stopped because he felt it was degrading (link to video), because it was making black players a target and he didn't feel it was working anyway, not because of anything to do with the BLM organisation. So, while his criticism of the Taking the knee is/may be valid, that's not a justification to actively boo it, is it? - And it's certainly nothing to do with Marxism and the BLM organisation that Wilf is talking about.

I have seen no players say they do or don't like what the BLM organisation stands for. If you have seen players say they don't support taking the knee because of marxism or BLM org then I'd be grateful if you could point me at them.

You also appear to be saying  that  because "[the players] ... come out and say it has nothing to do with BLM" this is evidence it is to do with the BLM mvt and attacking the Police and pulling down statues? That one has got me baffled. An analogy would be like saying someone who argued for (say) better access for football fans to big match tickets was being supportive of the cocaine sniffing yobs who jibbed Wembley and assaulted Italians.

I'm pleased you can see the players are genuine in their reasoning and you're supportive of their stance. That's excellent.

I'm extremely sceptical that a different gesture would just bring applause, and the reason why is that every single anti-racist gesture or action to date, in my lifetime, has brought condemnation from some people -whether it's downright opposition and abuse, or telling them "you're doing the wrong sort of protest" or telling them "your protest might be peaceful, but other people have done non-peaceful actions, so you must be like them" .

When Jack Grealish and Ollie Watkins and Tyrone Mings and Emi Martinez and Ezri Konsa and Marcus Rashford and Southgate and Henderson and .....all of them - when they take the knee and say they are doing so simply to demonstrate a desire for racial equality I wholeheartedly believe them and support them in doing so. If I didn't, I still wouldn't boo them, I'd simply stay silent, accepting that their right to campaign for something they believe in exists (even if I didn't share that belief).

I wrote earlier about why I thought some people didn't support them, and not everyone who doesn't support them is a racist, but people who boo them are wilfully, or unwittingly through their actions, displaying ignorance - to go back to my better ticket allocations analogy - if I (and other fans) do a peaceful protest for more access to tickets for ordinary fans at cup finals, other people may think "no, Corporates deserve to have their privileged rights to tickets maintained, or the sport needs the money from corporates to preserve it's well-being" that's fine and they could campaign for that, too. But if they started actively opposing the gesture to campaign for more even distribution of tickets by booing and jeering from the corporate boxes, I'd not look well upon them either.

I think we need to accept that other people have a right to opinions that differ from our own, but I also think we need to accept that trying to drown out and silence and smother other legitimately held opinions is a bad road to be going down.

"I want racial equality" - "Marxist BOOOO, shut up!" is a really bad look.

[sparrow1988]

30 minutes ago, QldVilla said:

I’m not sure what point your post is getting to, but I do like many have concerns regarding the narrative when the statistics don’t back up this world wide concern. By the way being Australian can you explain to me the epidemic of racism in Australia?

I just answered all your points with counterarguments. If you're not sure what my post means then look at what you've written in your previous post and compare my points to yours.

Regarding Australia, epidemic is your choice of word, I'd call it an issue or a problem. Epidemic is a tad overexaggerated. Are you looking for a different answer than white people invaded the land 200 to 250 years ago, displaced the native Aboriginal people who had been there for the previous 5000 years or so, and still face prejudice and are integrated very poorly in to today's society, enacted a "White Australia Policy" through a set of racial policies from the beginning of the 1900's through to it finally being abolished in the 1970's, leading to the anti-Asian/anti-Aborigine sentiment that lasts until this day? Coupled with the return of the One Nation Party to prominence as a result being voted for by the public as well as such people as Malclom Roberts and Pauline Hanson, the latter of which wore full islamic dress into the Senate while later calling for the Burqa to be banned. The same party brought an "It's ok to be white" (a phrase associated with white supremacists) motion before the Senate in 2018 which was only narrowly defeated. Also in 2018, Fraser Anning calling for the reintroduction of the White Australia Policy to provide a "Final Solution" (I'm going to assume that you don't need the meaning of this phrase explained to you) with particular regard to the "problem" of Muslim Migration.

And just in case the examples above feel like an attack on you because all the aforementioned people represent QLD, my brother lived in Melbourne for 3 years from 2017 - 2020 and his now wife teached in a few schools there and said that children of the age of 6/7 already have a discriminatory attitude towards Asian kids. I can't remember the exact names they call them but if it's not a problem for the country that kids of 6/7 have that type of attitude (it's obvious they're getting from the adults around them) then I don't know what is.

So to summarise, above are a few points - some that I knew already, some that I researched to double check that I'm not talking bollox, and one from somebody's lived experience in Australia - that display that Australia has a racism problem (not an epidemic).

[QldVilla]

42 minutes ago, tomav84 said:

everyone i have spoken to has forgotten they even had those words on the backs of their shirts. we see players kneeling, and we accept the reasons given for players kneeling.

i've not looked up the BLM organisation, i have no idea whether they're marxist or not. i don't even know what marxism means, mainly because whenever i've asked someone they've not been able to explain it to be and i cannot be bothered to look it up myself. and the reason i cannot be bothered to look it up is because as far as i, and every single person i've spoken to about it are concerned, it's completely irrelevant to any argument because i accept the reasons given by those performing the gesture that there is no organisation linked to it...marxist, political or otherwise

it's a peaceful, short, harmless gesture to raise awareness and make a stand against racism...that's it...and some cannot bear to see it. they're not 'cautious', they are quite against it. so they boo. and ironically confirms the exact reason the players have done it in the first place

those that boo are just so **** stupid that they don't even realise if they'd kept their mouths shut and tolerated it for a few months, the gesture would've probably ended by now.

I don’t disagree with you, but there are football fans who don’t like it, and it’s simplistic and ignorant to believe these people must be racists for booing. They have genuine issues, if the players initiative should be respected, why isn’t the opinion of those fans not?

At the very beginning of this I said I respect the players for their stance and support it, but I also acknowledge the concerns of other supporters. Subsequently some on this forum think we should blindly follow the wishes of others and issues shouldn’t be debated or respected, or if we don’t agree we have no understanding of the issues.
 

My concern came from an individual on this forum make a post made on an individuals comment on Twitter look like a member of the kkk ie racist. Then other members support this post saying you have to look at a word, what? It is disgraceful that this is acceptable and what is the narrative, he didn’t agree with taking the knee, so he is a racist. No he is an individual expressing their opinion, someone doesn’t like it, so he is racist.

[sparrow1988]

45 minutes ago, Mark Albrighton said:

I suggested in here that if the players were kneeling to support and bring awareness to the country’s underprivileged, hungry children…how much would people boo and jeer then? I’m going to go out on a limb and say not much. 

And someone, apologies I forget who, validly pointed out that a campaign with the aim of helping disadvantaged children has far more in common with “Marxism” than a campaign for racial equality.

You'd be surprised. Some of the reaction Rashford received for his campaign to feed underpriviliged children was disgusting.

[tomav84]

Just now, sparrow1988 said:

You'd be surprised. Some of the reaction Rashford received for his campaign to feed underpriviliged children was disgusting.

to be fair, if he were white the reaction would've been different. it wasn't what was being done that was being criticised, it was who was doing it. just from what i saw anyway

[sparrow1988]

1 minute ago, tomav84 said:

to be fair, if he were white the reaction would've been different. it wasn't what was being done that was being criticised, it was who was doing it. just from what i saw anyway

That too.

However, there were also comments on social media saying stuff like "their parents should be feeding them" and "if their parents didn't spend all their money on fags and booze, then they could afford to feed them" and so on. I don't know where this attitude comes from. My parents fed me going to school, because as far as I know there are no such thing as school lunches in Ireland, at least not where I went to school, but I can still understand that not all parents can afford to do that.

[Sam-AVFC]

52 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

Some fans just don't want football to be used for these kind of messages and I'd kind of agree with that too.

What kind of messages do you mean? Because the only reason it's being linked with 'Marxist' messages is because the people against it refuse to stop conflating the too, it's not at all what the players are using it for. Are you against the yearly poppy charade too?

[a m ole]

19 minutes ago, QldVilla said:

Subsequently some on this forum think we should blindly follow the wishes of others and issues shouldn’t be debated or respected, or if we don’t agree we have no understanding of the issues

Literally no one said this.

[Sam-AVFC]

Anyone that thinks a group of multi millionaire footballers support a Marxist movement is a moron.

Anyone who thinks the problem is alienating the racists by being to mean to them is a moron.

Anyone who quotes Boris Johnson saying he has said we need actions not gestures clearly knows nothing about him.

The 'gesture' has worked perfectly. It drew out all the angry booing racists, made numerous MPs support them and as soon as we lost a game the racists came out in full force showing that all of the mealy mouthed defences of them in the past were, and still are, absolute bollocks.

Anyone not supporting players kneeling because they are against specific values of some parts of a movement that the players have distanced themselves from is just looking for a socially acceptable reason to not support them in bringing awareness to racism. It's the same as people that always say we're nowhere near as bad as other countries. It's about distracting from and minimising our own issues with racism by making them look comparatively unimportant.

I must admit I found it exasperatingly funny that rather than worrying about the social media messages that did come from people in this country, many people defended it by saying it was mostly foreigners doing the racism online.

Edited July 15, 2021 by Sam-AVFC

[Panto_Villan]

Have the players ever specifically said what they mean by "racism" or "racial equality"? Because those terms can have a lot of different interpretations these days.

I can't help feel like if what the protests were actually in aid of was a bit clearer, the debate would be less heated. If the players said the protest had the narrowest possible interpretation and was purely against racial abuse, I there would be less people disagreeing with the protest. If the players went to the other extreme and said the protests were in support of reparation payments to black people for the historical sins of slavery, I think fewer people would be being called racist for disagreeing with it.

It feels like some people are angry that others won't just get behind a simple anti-racism message, while others are annoyed that they are being called racist for not being 100% on board with a protest that might actually represent views on racism that are far from universally accepted. But it's hard to know how much people actually disagree with each other if there's no common definition of what the protests are hoping to achieve.

EDIT - of course, if they have specifically said it, feel free to link me and then ignore the rest of my post.

Edited July 15, 2021 by Panto_Villan