Racism in Football

[Genie]

23 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

If you're going to quote Boris in defence of booing this, I'm not sure it's going to help your cause. 

Picking a racist to support the idea that booing this isn't racist, doesn't really work.

I saw someone on Facebook wrote this about Boris

Now now. He explained all this at PMQ’s today.  It’s true that he compared Muslim women to bank robbers and letterboxes, mocked a Chinese air stewardess’s accent, called black people piccaninnies with watermelon smiles, called the Scots a vile race, called the French turds, agreed with Robert Mugabe’s assertion that the Labour Party was controlled by gay gangsters, compared the EU to Hitler, referred to hook-nosed Arabs, called Barrack Obama part-Kenyan, referred to Jewish oligarchs controlling the media and called gay men tank-topped bum boys. But people are just taking him out of context. That’s all! 

[tomav84]

6 hours ago, QldVilla said:

The players started during project restart, they had black lives matter emblazoned on the back of there jerseys. 

 

I accept that the players are genuine when they take the knee, but they could also have chosen any other gesture or changed the gesture and all fans would support and applaud it.

i think you've contradicted yourself here. seems that many have been triggered by the Black Lives Matter movement slogan (not the BLM organisation logo) being put on the shirts. therefore i think any subsequent gesture that followed, be it taking a knee, standing arm in arm, or doing star jumps would have still been booed, IMO.

fortunately, 99% of fans do stand and applaud the current gesture, and i have an first hand account of this happening at villa park where a very small group of boos were swiftly drowned out. a core nationalist england support in the early euro 2020 england games were more vocal, but in latter games they too were totally drowned out as more fans were allowed in.

[sparrow1988]

5 hours ago, QldVilla said:

The players started during project restart, they had black lives matter emblazoned on the back of there jerseys. 

You have black players from different clubs who have said they won't take the knee because of its association with BLM.

You have the manager of England come and say it has nothing to do with BLM, why? Because the communications people at the FA have seen the data saying fans don't like it because of its association with BLM. 

At what point do you stop treating all other fans like they are stupid?

I accept that the players are genuine when they take the knee, but they could also have chosen any other gesture or changed the gesture and all fans would support and applaud it.

They did start after project restart, because it was an underlying issue which bubbled over after the George Floyd, Breona Taylor murders and felt they had to make a stand as it became a global issue. It's not an imported issue as you suggest. It's everywhere, the US, the UK, Ireland, Australia, Germany, France, South America, Asia, everywhere.

Some players have said that they find it is not having the desired effect and that is why they have stopped. They may after seeing the Euros decide to start again. Who knows? Who has said they have stopped because of Black Lives Matter? Zaha has said he found it degrading and wanted to stand tall. Fair play to him. That's his choice. Mings takes the knee as his want to protest as do other players, as did Kapernick in America before NFL games.

Southgate and the players have said that because they are making an anti-racism protest. It might have started as a support for Black Lives Matter but they have explicitly stated it is now an anti-racism protest. That might be because the phrase "black lives matter" upsets too many people as they've been fed and swallowed the marxist plot bullshit, so they've made it simpler in an attempt to educate people, as you suggested they should do, as to why they are protesting.

At the protest at the University of Virginia against the planned removal of the confederate stautes in 2017 (the one where actual members of the KKK were present and a white supremacist drove his car in to a crowd of anti-racism protestors), there were counter protests with people chanting black lives matter. Nobody was taking the knee that day. I'm sure the phrase Black Lives Matter precedes that day also. It is not as new as you suggest. One thing the phrase black lives matter and taking the knee have in common is that they are anti-racist and that upsets the racists in society.

Regarding when you stop treating fans like they are stupid, I don't believe anyone is treating fans as they are stupid. It has been explained why the players are taking the knee. If people decide to come up with other theories why the players are taking the knee, then that is a problem created by those people. I mean just because Southgate, Mings and Rashford have opened a children's home where they take in kids from disadvantaged families and read them a different chapter of Das Kapital every night before bed doesn't make them Marxists does it?

And as for your last point, it's not up to you to decide what anti-racsim protest black people should make. If they want to take the knee, then they should take the knee. If they want to stand tall like Zaha then they should do that. Similarly, for the black power salute that John Carlos and Tommie Smith made. I don't think that you or I as white people get to tell black/asian/mixed race etc. people how to make their anti-racism protest.

[Stevo985]

13 hours ago, foreveryoung said:

It's not that simple and you know it, also not true!!

There are plenty of people who don't support BLM the movement, does not mean they are racists at all. I would never boo the knee, but I don't support it, as it's stating we as a country are systematically racist and I don't believe that.

I'm not saying those who don't 'support the movement are racist. I am saying those who actively boo an anti racism gesture are racist. They can hide behind the lie that it's because it's marxist or whatever. but we all know that's bollocks. It just makes them feel better than admitting they hate brown people

[Stevo985]

13 hours ago, Panto_Villan said:

 

Out of interest, do you guys disagree with the long post made by @blandy above? If so, what do you disagree with?

I ask because you both seem to be intent on being as reductionist as possible, and it means it's difficult to know if your views actually are as black and white as what you've laid out or if you just don't want to write a long post.

If you're ignorant enough to still make the connection between BLM and the knee and boo because of that then you're part of the problem.

Booing an anti racism gesture is racist whether you come up with fancy excuses or not

[Stevo985]

12 hours ago, bannedfromHandV said:

Same as everyone who voted for brexit, right? 

No not at all

[bannedfromHandV]

7 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

No not at all

Curious to know why.

I remember around the time of the Brexit vote, that early on it was generally deemed acceptable to consider anyone who voted for it to ultimately be racist, all racists voted for it and it was the racist vote. Over time, for a range of reasons that became unacceptable and we moved to a point where whilst it remained the racist vote, not all who voted for it were racist.

So I just wonder, what’s so different here that we can easily assume everyone who boos is a racist and leave no room for question or discussion? 

And just for personal clarity, although I don’t believe it’s necessary, I am not defending those who boo, nor would I choose to boo, I’m just trying to work out if those who are booing are all National Front members or if there are perhaps more nuances to it all.

[QldVilla]

1 hour ago, Rolta said:

You haven't understood what I was saying. But I'd also suggest that it's you who has a cartoon version of BLM's original organisers. It's something like three skeletors.  

And you don't seem to have spent any time actually listening to their arguments. You don't have to agree with them, but it's good to understand the actual words they say and to try to work out their reasoning. 

But that's beside the (my) point. The black lives matter protests were something far beyond what those original 'organisers' were discussing to a degree that what happened last summer is completely separate from them. It was an anti racism movement pure and simple. If you think everyone protesting is a paid up Marxist then you again have a cartoon vision of what's been going on. 

In another post you've used Boris Johnson, one of the standard-bearers of saying whatever he wants to play to his crowd, as someone to back up what you're saying. I'm not sure he's a great example of a truth teller. Doesn't that make you naive? You can literally compare what he says one day with another and see he's lying. You don't need any editorial analysis to form any cynical worldview around that. 

Your line about attacking police/statues again suggests you have a cartoon vision of the topic. I'm afraid you willfully seem selective in what things you overly simplify. I could use the brexit analogy again here. You've lumped together an enormous anti racist movement, which was mostly peaceful and had a very basic message, and you've broadly painted the whole movement as statue attacking and police attacking. I'm sure if you think outside your box for a moment, you can imagine how, to use the analogy, someone could paint all brexit voters in the same overly simplistic way and using similar phrases. Attack police, yep. Attack not statues but ethnic minorities, yep. 

For the record, I'm not doing that but I'm just using it as an example.

Im a bit worried about the next bit because I don't really want to distract away from the topic of anti racism by delving deeper into your ideas of BLM's original 'organisers', as opposed to the anti racism movement, but can you even define what they are as 'marxists' and can you square your definition with what the organisers have actually said they want to do in their communities and why? Have you tried to understand the argument at all? If you haven't, but you get angry just because you heard the word 'Marxism', then it's definitely you with the cartoon vision. And again for the record I am not a Marxist! 

It’s funny how you talk about original organisers rather than focussing on what they are now. Also not a surprise that you piece meal comments from another post asking a specific question and not related to what our thread was discussing.

The point is the average person who has concerns with bending the knee is the concerns with BLM. This is the challenge, getting those people to understand what the players are trying to achieve, not trying to be smart and not calling people racists because they don’t accept the narrative.

Some people just don’t want politics in their sport. 

You keep trying to be smart by making assumptions  based on what you believe BLM are, your condescending tone beliving that the rest of us haven’t done their research because we don’t agree with you, well… We have just come to a different conclusion than you.

I doubt you have any idea what an actual racist is, but quick to call someone one because they don’t agree with you.

[Davkaus]

I don't think I've ever seen anyone sensible claim that every Brexit voter is a racist, though, as you alluded to the inverse point, I don't think I've encountered a racist that didn't vote for Brexit. Maybe a few exist, but pointing out that this is the case is not an argument that all Brexit voters are racist at all, many of them are just words removed.

[QldVilla]

1 hour ago, DCJonah said:

If you're going to quote Boris in defence of booing this, I'm not sure it's going to help your cause. 

Picking a racist to support the idea that booing this isn't racist, doesn't really work.

Maybe you should look at the original question? But then you would have to be a serious person.

[Wainy316]

I was skimming yesterday and I swear I saw Priti Patel described as something along the lines of "intelligent".

Off topic but I feel the need to put that to bed...

 

[YouUnastanFren]

13 hours ago, bannedfromHandV said:

Same as everyone who voted for brexit, right? 

It's more like someone who voted for the BNP but pretended it was for their economic policies

[Panto_Villan]

7 hours ago, TRO said:

I am not arguing against what you say, but again, its a very complex subject and most Black people will have varying interpretations of your points.

I am not black, so I am not in a position to disagree with you, but I have close friends who are, and have made a very good life for themselves in this country, by securing very good jobs.....may I also point out that many Black players feature favourably in terms of percentages in teams compared with the overall population, in what we all know as a very lucrative career, so not sure where the racial bias comes in there....Most top football teams feature many black Players and they get paid according to their skill set.

This country, from what I can see is an equal opportunity state, that is not perfect, but equally, is not quite the racist place some folk are willing to label it....sadly, as a country, we have elements of population, we are trying to educate, its a long haul, but it gets better imv...maybe too slowly, but the direction is right.

Would I expect to migrate to say The Congo or another predominantly Black country and expect to be equal, I think it might be expecting a bit, because not all folk think the same.....I am all for equal opportunity for all races, irrespective of their colour or creed, but we have to be realistic too, we have come a long way from " No Blacks,No Irish, No Dogs " those were the Dark days of ignorance and thankfully no longer exist, just like shoving kids up chimneys in Dickens's day, long gone.

It might also be worth pointing out too, Black on Black or white on white, have instances of prejudice, i.e African countries and Northern Ireland and the Balkans

My mate used to Live in Saudi and was pulled by the police, an Indigenous Arab, run in to the back of him whilst driving, the Police man nicked my mate and charged him an on the spot fine.....My friend said to him " In the uk he would have been charged, because he run in to me"...The Policeman said " If you wasn't here , it wouldn't have happened, so I am charging you".

My Point is, I don't think the UK is as bad as some folk paint it.....and many, many Black People rightfully so, lead an affluent life, because they have worked for it, and get their just rewards.

I am just trying to illustrate some perspective.

Sure, but the fact some people either genuinely lack perspective or are exaggerating things to serve their own political agenda doesn't necessarily discredit the wider calls for black equality. You don't have to support everything, but there are still things that could be done to reduce discrimination against black people and you'll probably find things worth supporting if you look at them with an open mind.

To use a slightly less heated example, think about climate change. You'll encounter anti-capitalist environmentalists that, conveniently enough, think abolishing capitalism is the best way of solving climate change. You don't have to agree with them to believe there is a problem that needs solving.

[Davkaus]

2 minutes ago, QldVilla said:

s concerns with bending the knee is the concerns with BLM. This is the challenge, getting those people to understand what the players are trying to achieve, not trying to be smart and not calling people racists because they don’t accept the narrative.

Some people just don’t want politics in their sport. 

 

Maybe an advert could be broadcast before the majority of games talking about what it means. Maybe there could be countless interviews of individual players talking about why they do it, and countless dismissals that they're in any way supporting BLM.

What some concerned people think about a gesture probably doesn't hold the same weight as the words of the people making the gesture.

[QldVilla]

1 hour ago, tomav84 said:

i think you've contradicted yourself here. seems that many have been triggered by the Black Lives Matter movement slogan (not the BLM organisation logo) being put on the shirts. therefore i think any subsequent gesture that followed, be it taking a knee, standing arm in arm, or doing star jumps would have still been booed, IMO.

fortunately, 99% of fans do stand and applaud the current gesture, and i have an first hand account of this happening at villa park where a very small group of boos were swiftly drowned out. a core nationalist england support in the early euro 2020 england games were more vocal, but in latter games they too were totally drowned out as more fans were allowed in.

That’s your assumption, the average person sees the words, and this is the point and why some supporters are cautious with the gesstures association.

[Davkaus]

Big difference between being "cautious", and ignoring everything the players say and booing them.

[Stevo985]

25 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said:

Curious to know why.

I remember around the time of the Brexit vote, that early on it was generally deemed acceptable to consider anyone who voted for it to ultimately be racist, all racists voted for it and it was the racist vote. Over time, for a range of reasons that became unacceptable and we moved to a point where whilst it remained the racist vote, not all who voted for it were racist.

So I just wonder, what’s so different here that we can easily assume everyone who boos is a racist and leave no room for question or discussion? 

And just for personal clarity, although I don’t believe it’s necessary, I am not defending those who boo, nor would I choose to boo, I’m just trying to work out if those who are booing are all National Front members or if there are perhaps more nuances to it all.

I don't really understand the comparison to be honest.

There are racist elements of Brexit, and I do think that all (or the vast majority of) racist people would have voted for it. But that's not the same as saying everyone who voted for it is racist and I don't think anybody has ever seriously said that.

 

Taking the knee is an anti racism gesture. It's not complicated. it has been very eloquently explained at length that it is nothing more than a gesture to support racial equality. It's not a huge political decision that has many many layers like Brexit. it's very simple. it is a gesture that opposes racism. If you boo that then you're racist. I don't really see how anyone can disagree with that.

Edited July 15, 2021 by Stevo985

[QldVilla]

11 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

Maybe an advert could be broadcast before the majority of games talking about what it means. Maybe there could be countless interviews of individual players talking about why they do it, and countless dismissals that they're in any way supporting BLM.

What some concerned people think about a gesture probably doesn't hold the same weight as the words of the people making the gesture.

Well that’s the difference isn’t it.

If your serious about a cause you try to bring everyone along.

[QldVilla]

51 minutes ago, sparrow1988 said:

They did start after project restart, because it was an underlying issue which bubbled over after the George Floyd, Breona Taylor murders and felt they had to make a stand as it became a global issue. It's not an imported issue as you suggest. It's everywhere, the US, the UK, Ireland, Australia, Germany, France, South America, Asia, everywhere.

Some players have said that they find it is not having the desired effect and that is why they have stopped. They may after seeing the Euros decide to start again. Who knows? Who has said they have stopped because of Black Lives Matter? Zaha has said he found it degrading and wanted to stand tall. Fair play to him. That's his choice. Mings takes the knee as his want to protest as do other players, as did Kapernick in America before NFL games.

Southgate and the players have said that because they are making an anti-racism protest. It might have started as a support for Black Lives Matter but they have explicitly stated it is now an anti-racism protest. That might be because the phrase "black lives matter" upsets too many people as they've been fed and swallowed the marxist plot bullshit, so they've made it simpler in an attempt to educate people, as you suggested they should do, as to why they are protesting.

At the protest at the University of Virginia against the planned removal of the confederate stautes in 2017 (the one where actual members of the KKK were present and a white supremacist drove his car in to a crowd of anti-racism protestors), there were counter protests with people chanting black lives matter. Nobody was taking the knee that day. I'm sure the phrase Black Lives Matter precedes that day also. It is not as new as you suggest. One thing the phrase black lives matter and taking the knee have in common is that they are anti-racist and that upsets the racists in society.

Regarding when you stop treating fans like they are stupid, I don't believe anyone is treating fans as they are stupid. It has been explained why the players are taking the knee. If people decide to come up with other theories why the players are taking the knee, then that is a problem created by those people. I mean just because Southgate, Mings and Rashford have opened a children's home where they take in kids from disadvantaged families and read them a different chapter of Das Kapital every night before bed doesn't make them Marxists does it?

And as for your last point, it's not up to you to decide what anti-racsim protest black people should make. If they want to take the knee, then they should take the knee. If they want to stand tall like Zaha then they should do that. Similarly, for the black power salute that John Carlos and Tommie Smith made. I don't think that you or I as white people get to tell black/asian/mixed race etc. people how to make their anti-racism protest.

I’m not sure what point your post is getting to, but I do like many have concerns regarding the narrative when the statistics don’t back up this world wide concern. By the way being Australian can you explain to me the epidemic of racism in Australia?

[a m ole]

5 hours ago, QldVilla said:

Ok champ, thanks for confirming my opinion, debate bad, shut up or I'll cancel you.

You’re not debating, you’re having a snowflake hissy fit when someone corrects your bullshit. Others here are debating you and you’re failing miserably.

You’re not being cancelled here. You’re completely free to ignore facts, invent links in your head and get red in the face because people are kneeling before a football match. I’m free to laugh at how pathetic and sad that is, and call it out for what it is.