Racism in Football

[foreveryoung]

4 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said:

Just to answer your request for info - the UK branch of BLM is pretty explicit about their anti-capitalist stance on their GoFundMe page: https://uk.gofundme.com/f/ukblm-fund

Second paragraph in: "We’re guided by a commitment to dismantle imperialism, capitalism, white-supremacy, patriarchy and the state structures that disproportionately harm black people in Britain and around the world."

After reading that mate, I certainly don't support BLM.

[Panto_Villan]

5 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

After reading that mate, I certainly don't support BLM.

No, nor do I. But just to be completely clear, you can be on board with the general black lives matter movement without specifically supporting Black Lives Matter (the organisation), and someone expressing support for black lives matter isn't necessarily also expressing support for Black Lives Matter.

[tomav84]

39 minutes ago, paul514 said:

Final thought for everyone who isn't 'ciggiesandbeer', IF there is a big problem with racism in the UK then jumping on people wanting to have a good faith conversation isn't the way to bring it about, you haven't changed my views and now you don't have the opportunity to do so.

your ignorant views were never going to change so please don't pretend there was ever even a remote chance that someone could have changed them

[Wainy316]

2 hours ago, paul514 said:

BLM is a marxist organisation.

Players taking a knee and saying it is about the slogan and not the political organisation are still supporting the organisation.

I would boo them.

Define Marxism

 

[Panto_Villan]

2 hours ago, paul514 said:

As the only person who didn't just do a ridiculous pile on, here are a couple of article links for you.

https://fee.org/articles/is-black-lives-matter-marxist-no-and-yes/
https://nypost.com/2020/06/25/blm-co-founder-describes-herself-as-trained-marxist/

Also the website used to state it was a marxist organisation, that wanted to change the nuclear family, defund the police and so on.....

However I am already done with this thread due to not wanting to deal with a continuous mass of posts.

Final thought for everyone who isn't 'ciggiesandbeer', IF there is a big problem with racism in the UK then jumping on people wanting to have a good faith conversation isn't the way to bring it about, you haven't changed my views and now you don't have the opportunity to do so.

Let me have a go then. I don't think there'll be too many people on here that would call me a raging lefty so perhaps you'll listen to me.

Being anti-racist can just be as simple as recognising that black people have a harder life on average than white people. You're more likely to be born poor and so have less opportunities in life. Even if you do well at school, keep your nose clean and get a good job, the police are way more likely to repeatedly stop you and search you for weapons or drugs simply because you're black. If you apply for a new job, you've got more chance of being filtered out at CV stage simply because your name sounds "foreign". If you still manage to become rich and famous, the press coverage you get from right-wing outlets is noticably meaner-spirited. If you venture onto social media, you get sent messages by racists telling you that you're a subhuman monkey. And so on.

There's cold hard evidence for all of that, and it all adds up over time. It's certainly possible to quibble about whether any of those things is happening specifically because the UK has a problem with racism - god knows I do, because I think causes matter a lot when you're trying to devise solutions - but just make sure you remember while doing so that the average black person has to put up with a lot more than the average white person in this country. Whether the root cause is racism or not, if you believe in equality for everyone you should believe it's worth fixing those things.

Remember also that a movement shouldn't be defined by the most extreme voices in it. If you believe in animal welfare, PETA doesn't necessarily represent your views. If you think we should address climate change, Extinction Rebellion doesn't necessarily represent your views. There's some very loud voices and very bad ideas in the anti-racism movement but don't let that obscure the reality that the movement as a whole can be a force for good. 

This vast majority of people on this forum have left-leaning views, but VT is a bit of an echo chamber in that regard and it doesn't really reflect wider society. It's not fair on the black people in this country to back away from the black equality movement because VT is taking the piss out of you; ultimately it doesn't actually matter if internet people call you a racist. Just spend a bit of time reading about the challenges faced by black people in this country and think about whether you think the situation is fair. You don't have to support everything, but I suspect you'll find at least something you think is worth supporting.

Edited July 14, 2021 by Panto_Villan

[a m ole]

Just to remove any doubt that I might be some hardcore Marxist trying to push an agenda, and I can’t speak for anyone else, but I’m in no way strongly left-leaning, vaguely would be a much more accurate description. My opposition to pricks booing players objecting to racism is purely about pricks booing players objecting to racism.

[Panto_Villan]

3 minutes ago, a m ole said:

Just to remove any doubt that I might be some hardcore Marxist trying to push an agenda, and I can’t speak for anyone else, but I’m in no way strongly left-leaning, vaguely would be a much more accurate description. My opposition to pricks booing players objecting to racism is purely about pricks booing players objecting to racism.

Perhaps I was being a bit hyperbolic when I used the word "strongly", maybe I'll change that - I guess what I meant was that right-wing views are underrepresented on here, so the overall views lean strongly left even if individual posters aren't themselves strongly to the left.

[TRO]

3 hours ago, DCJonah said:

I actually agree with all the reasons @blandygave as to why people boo. The difference is, for me, I believe there are racist undertones within all those reasons. So it simply comes back to what @Stevo985said and me agreeing with him. Deep down, booing those players is coming down to people being racist. 

I do wonder why booing this particular stance is being apologised for and excuses made. Would it happen if people booed other gestures that are trying to raise awareness for issues that make the world better?

Is it acceptable to boo people collecting money for charity? Would we excuse people who boo people trying to raise awareness of various illnesses and disabilities? 

Why does this particular issue have people ready to jump to the defence of those that act in this manner towards it?

* Just to add to this. I can well believe there are people who think the way Blandy described who aren't racist, but I bet my life, those people don't choose to boo it. 

I think there's lots of people who don't agree with the gesture or don't think it does much, who stay quiet and ignore it. To choose to publicly boo something in front of thousands of others is an incredibly strong decision when it comes to something like this. Hence my belief its coming from a place of racism. 

my understanding is that some folk think that the (BLM) taking of the knee awareness ,has been hijacked by some political undertones....now whether that is true or not, or whether the players are aware, it may have an affect on a persons outlook on it....but that would not make them racist, more a political opponent.

I don' think its that simple to brand them all racists.

 

Edited July 15, 2021 by TRO

[QldVilla]

15 hours ago, Rolta said:

I'm going to make a website called Brexit that calls for collective ownership and I hope to inspire the same logic as is used against BLM. 

Because it's the same thing. Sure some people made a website, and I really hope those so triggered by the phrase 'defund the police' have listened to the actual argument they're making. But the masses who protested against police killings of black people in the US were not paid up members of a website—they were obviously and clearly doing so to protest...police killings of black people. The phrase Black Lives Matter is not copyrighted by any organisation, and it's a pretty obvious thing to say in light of the killings, and in the face of racist sentiment in general. Black lives matter. 

And Colin Kaepernick taking the knee is nothing to do with the website either.

People latching on to the 'BLM are a Marxist organisation' argument come across to me, if I'm honest, either really stupid or willfully disingenuous. I'm sure it's a mix of the two—arseholes willing on the naive—and in fairness I imagine there are some decent people who have fallen for the narrative a little naively. But it is **** stupid.

I could look at Leave.eu and say, 'Look at these odious windup-merchants, I don't agree with the politics of Brexit.' But it is a non sequitur. The same logic is used here, but the only difference is literally a name. 

(Brexit references used only as an easy, ironic and obvious example)

The problem with your argument, is they are completely different issues.

The country decided to leave the european union boo hoo. Your country voted and made a decision, democracy in action.

The issue with BLM is that there reasoning actually isnt backed up with statistics. By the way BLM stands for more than defund the police, it is a marxist organisation and isnt interested in the equalty of opportunity, it is a divisive ideological movement and belivies all white people are inherently racist.

It doesnt surprise me that some don't let the facts get in the way of their argument or they come up with a cartoon version of BLM, really just highlights their own naivety.

PS dont mind the toppling of statues and attacking Police etc etc...

[QldVilla]

14 hours ago, blandy said:

I have a question and a comment.

First the comment - I agree they should "keep educating the public on why they are making this stance and work hard to win those over to show it’s important to the players, that’s how you change the people minds that its a genuine platform.".

Now the question - what is "the evidence" that the normal person sees, which counters Gareth Southgate's and the players assertions that it's not to do with the BLM organisation? I ask because I'm "normal" (ish), and I can't see any evidence.

Well, I like to get information from many different forums, some choose one over the other and there's many different mediums you can get that information from. Your own PM and other political leaders have said they don't agree with taking the knee and that they don't support its use due to its association with BLM. To also quote Wilfred Zaha the first player to stop doing the knee, 'I find it degrading'. Other black players have stopped doing it as well for their own reasons, some quoting they don't like what BLM stands for. The fans don't miss this.

To quote your PM, 'I don't believe in gestures, I believe in action'. Many others have commented on what BLM stands for and to be brutally honest, the players could have chosen any gesture to stand against racism but they followed the one adopted by BLM and had it emblazoned on the back of their jersey's.

They subsequently come out and say it has nothing to do with BLM (to come out and say this automatically entertains the fact that they have identified that some fans don't like the gestures association), but the average person isn't silly, they become more knowledgeable about the BLM mvt, pulling down statues, attacking Police and they don't like it. The old saying, 'if it walks like a duck.....'

At the end of the day some of us like you and me can see that the players are genuine in their reasoning and we can support their stance. Others see this as political gesturing which started from BLM and they don't like it in their sport, why, because if you swallow BLM's narrative, if you are white you are inherently racist and this offends hardworking people/fans.

I'd bet if the players came up with a different gesture and communicated better, there wouldn't be one boo, people would just applaud.

 

[QldVilla]

15 hours ago, a m ole said:

Yeah, definitely their fault and not the stubborn and ignorant. Jesus **** Christ.

Yes im seeing where the ignorance is, blind following the blind scenario, god forbid people have there own opinions and thoughts.

[QldVilla]

15 hours ago, Rolta said:

These people seem willfully keen to swallow everything they're told as long as it undermines an anti racist message. 

I hope they apply as much critical thinking to all the other big issues, including the ones they're not spoon fed. 

Again, isn't that what your doing? Your not interested in the reasons why some don't like taking the knee, even though everything they see is associated with an organisation that is anti-white in its agenda, but that is ok? Hypocrisy.

[QldVilla]

15 hours ago, sparrow1988 said:

The knee started way before the black lives matter movement. I haven't a clue when but I remember seeing pictures/footage of Martin Luther King and his supporters doing it. I wouldn't be surprised if it goes back even further. And to be fair just because someone started a website called BLM where they state a few socialist policies doesn't mean that everyone protesting for racial equality is a flaming marxist. Like the poster above said, even the "no taxes" republicans in California support the black lives matter movement because they understand it is do with racial inequality, not turning everyone into a socialist.

I'm not spinning any narrative. Lilico knew exactly what he was saying by using the word submission. It in no way fits into the context of what he is saying. He's an intelligent bloke and knows what connotations that word contains. Either that or he's an idiot and tried to use a big word and ended up looking like a racist.

And as for your PS, while agreeing with the second part, the first part is almost conpiracy theory stuff. You're saying that they need to keep telling the people why they continue protesting, but, at the same time when they do tell people, the normal people see the "evidence". What is this evidence? I have seen nothing to suggest that it is nothing more than a protest against racism.

The players started during project restart, they had black lives matter emblazoned on the back of there jerseys. 

You have black players from different clubs who have said they won't take the knee because of its association with BLM.

You have the manager of England come and say it has nothing to do with BLM, why? Because the communications people at the FA have seen the data saying fans don't like it because of its association with BLM. 

At what point do you stop treating all other fans like they are stupid?

I accept that the players are genuine when they take the knee, but they could also have chosen any other gesture or changed the gesture and all fans would support and applaud it.

[TRO]

1 hour ago, Panto_Villan said:

Let me have a go then. I don't think there'll be too many people on here that would call me a raging lefty so perhaps you'll listen to me.

Being anti-racist can just be as simple as recognising that black people have a harder life on average than white people. You're more likely to be born poor and so have less opportunities in life. Even if you do well at school, keep your nose clean and get a good job, the police are way more likely to repeatedly stop you and search you for weapons or drugs simply because you're black. If you apply for a new job, you've got more chance of being filtered out at CV stage simply because your name sounds "foreign". If you still manage to become rich and famous, the press coverage you get from right-wing outlets is noticably meaner-spirited. If you venture onto social media, you get sent messages by racists telling you that you're a subhuman monkey. And so on.

There's cold hard evidence for all of that, and it all adds up over time. It's certainly possible to quibble about whether any of those things is happening specifically because the UK has a problem with racism - god knows I do, because I think causes matter a lot when you're trying to devise solutions - but just make sure you remember while doing so that the average black person has to put up with a lot more than the average white person in this country. Whether the root cause is racism or not, if you believe in equality for everyone you should believe it's worth fixing those things.

Remember also that a movement shouldn't be defined by the most extreme voices in it. If you believe in animal welfare, PETA doesn't necessarily represent your views. If you think we should address climate change, Extinction Rebellion doesn't necessarily represent your views. There's some very loud voices and very bad ideas in the anti-racism movement but don't let that obscure the reality that the movement as a whole can be a force for good. 

This vast majority of people on this forum have left-leaning views, but VT is a bit of an echo chamber in that regard and it doesn't really reflect wider society. It's not fair on the black people in this country to back away from the black equality movement because VT is taking the piss out of you; ultimately it doesn't actually matter if internet people call you a racist. Just spend a bit of time reading about the challenges faced by black people in this country and think about whether you think the situation is fair. You don't have to support everything, but I suspect you'll find at least something you think is worth supporting.

I am not arguing against what you say, but again, its a very complex subject and most Black people will have varying interpretations of your points.

I am not black, so I am not in a position to disagree with you, but I have close friends who are, and have made a very good life for themselves in this country, by securing very good jobs.....may I also point out that many Black players feature favourably in terms of percentages in teams compared with the overall population, in what we all know as a very lucrative career, so not sure where the racial bias comes in there....Most top football teams feature many black Players and they get paid according to their skill set.

This country, from what I can see is an equal opportunity state, that is not perfect, but equally, is not quite the racist place some folk are willing to label it....sadly, as a country, we have elements of population, we are trying to educate, its a long haul, but it gets better imv...maybe too slowly, but the direction is right.

Would I expect to migrate to say The Congo or another predominantly Black country and expect to be equal, I think it might be expecting a bit, because not all folk think the same.....I am all for equal opportunity for all races, irrespective of their colour or creed, but we have to be realistic too, we have come a long way from " No Blacks,No Irish, No Dogs " those were the Dark days of ignorance and thankfully no longer exist, just like shoving kids up chimneys in Dickens's day, long gone.

It might also be worth pointing out too, Black on Black or white on white, have instances of prejudice, i.e African countries and Northern Ireland and the Balkans

My mate used to Live in Saudi and was pulled by the police, an Indigenous Arab, run in to the back of him whilst driving, the Police man nicked my mate and charged him an on the spot fine.....My friend said to him " In the uk he would have been charged, because he run in to me"...The Policeman said " If you wasn't here , it wouldn't have happened, so I am charging you".

My Point is, I don't think the UK is as bad as some folk paint it.....and many, many Black People rightfully so, lead an affluent life, because they have worked for it, and get their just rewards.

I am just trying to illustrate some perspective.

Edited July 15, 2021 by TRO

[a m ole]

1 hour ago, QldVilla said:

Yes im seeing where the ignorance is, blind following the blind scenario, god forbid people have there own opinions and thoughts.

Literally all the points you’ve parroted the last few posts have been countered a hundred times, you don’t read and you don’t learn so I’m not even going to start. You can have your own precious opinions and thoughts, just don’t complain when it gets called out for what it is. The hypocrisy is all yours.

[QldVilla]

1 hour ago, a m ole said:

Literally all the points you’ve parroted the last few posts have been countered a hundred times, you don’t read and you don’t learn so I’m not even going to start. You can have your own precious opinions and thoughts, just don’t complain when it gets called out for what it is. The hypocrisy is all yours.

Ok champ, thanks for confirming my opinion, debate bad, shut up or I'll cancel you.

[DCJonah]

6 hours ago, TRO said:

my understanding is that some folk think that the (BLM) taking of the knee awareness ,has been hijacked by some political undertones....now whether that is true or not, or whether the players are aware, it may have an affect on a persons outlook on it....but that would not make them racist, more a political opponent.

I don' think its that simple to brand them all racists.

 

Disagree, I think it's just another excuse to cover up people who are racist. 

If you're well informed enough to understand the political actions behind BLM, then I don't believe you haven't read or heard the players say multiple times that what they are doing is for racial equality. If you choose to ignore those doing the action then you're doing so to justify your racist booing. 

 

[Rolta]

6 hours ago, QldVilla said:

The problem with your argument, is they are completely different issues.

The country decided to leave the european union boo hoo. Your country voted and made a decision, democracy in action.

The issue with BLM is that there reasoning actually isnt backed up with statistics. By the way BLM stands for more than defund the police, it is a marxist organisation and isnt interested in the equalty of opportunity, it is a divisive ideological movement and belivies all white people are inherently racist.

It doesnt surprise me that some don't let the facts get in the way of their argument or they come up with a cartoon version of BLM, really just highlights their own naivety.

PS dont mind the toppling of statues and attacking Police etc etc...

You haven't understood what I was saying. But I'd also suggest that it's you who has a cartoon version of BLM's original organisers. It's something like three skeletors.  

And you don't seem to have spent any time actually listening to their arguments. You don't have to agree with them, but it's good to understand the actual words they say and to try to work out their reasoning. 

But that's beside the (my) point. The black lives matter protests were something far beyond what those original 'organisers' were discussing to a degree that what happened last summer is completely separate from them. It was an anti racism movement pure and simple. If you think everyone protesting is a paid up Marxist then you again have a cartoon vision of what's been going on. 

In another post you've used Boris Johnson, one of the standard-bearers of saying whatever he wants to play to his crowd, as someone to back up what you're saying. I'm not sure he's a great example of a truth teller. Doesn't that make you naive? You can literally compare what he says one day with another and see he's lying. You don't need any editorial analysis to form any cynical worldview around that. 

Your line about attacking police/statues again suggests you have a cartoon vision of the topic. I'm afraid you willfully seem selective in what things you overly simplify. I could use the brexit analogy again here. You've lumped together an enormous anti racist movement, which was mostly peaceful and had a very basic message, and you've broadly painted the whole movement as statue attacking and police attacking. I'm sure if you think outside your box for a moment, you can imagine how, to use the analogy, someone could paint all brexit voters in the same overly simplistic way and using similar phrases. Attack police, yep. Attack not statues but ethnic minorities, yep. 

For the record, I'm not doing that but I'm just using it as an example.

Im a bit worried about the next bit because I don't really want to distract away from the topic of anti racism by delving deeper into your ideas of BLM's original 'organisers', as opposed to the anti racism movement, but can you even define what they are as 'marxists' and can you square your definition with what the organisers have actually said they want to do in their communities and why? Have you tried to understand the argument at all? If you haven't, but you get angry just because you heard the word 'Marxism', then it's definitely you with the cartoon vision. And again for the record I am not a Marxist! 

Edited July 15, 2021 by Rolta

[DCJonah]

5 hours ago, QldVilla said:

Well, I like to get information from many different forums, some choose one over the other and there's many different mediums you can get that information from. Your own PM and other political leaders have said they don't agree with taking the knee and that they don't support its use due to its association with BLM. To also quote Wilfred Zaha the first player to stop doing the knee, 'I find it degrading'. Other black players have stopped doing it as well for their own reasons, some quoting they don't like what BLM stands for. The fans don't miss this.

To quote your PM, 'I don't believe in gestures, I believe in action'. Many others have commented on what BLM stands for and to be brutally honest, the players could have chosen any gesture to stand against racism but they followed the one adopted by BLM and had it emblazoned on the back of their jersey's.

They subsequently come out and say it has nothing to do with BLM (to come out and say this automatically entertains the fact that they have identified that some fans don't like the gestures association), but the average person isn't silly, they become more knowledgeable about the BLM mvt, pulling down statues, attacking Police and they don't like it. The old saying, 'if it walks like a duck.....'

At the end of the day some of us like you and me can see that the players are genuine in their reasoning and we can support their stance. Others see this as political gesturing which started from BLM and they don't like it in their sport, why, because if you swallow BLM's narrative, if you are white you are inherently racist and this offends hardworking people/fans.

I'd bet if the players came up with a different gesture and communicated better, there wouldn't be one boo, people would just applaud.

 

If you're going to quote Boris in defence of booing this, I'm not sure it's going to help your cause. 

Picking a racist to support the idea that booing this isn't racist, doesn't really work.

[Genie]

A lot of people seem to have been caught this time

The latest academy players from Portsmouth.

Quote

PORTSMOUTH have launched an investigation into claims academy players racially abused England stars in a sickening leaked group chat.

A leaked group chat has been circulating on social media which appears to show Pompey youngsters sending vile messages to each other following England's penalty shootout loss to Italy in the Euro 2020 final.

Link