TRO Posted July 14, 2021 Share Posted July 14, 2021 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Mark Albrighton said: Probably worth revisiting Patel’s death penalty argument about killing innocent people acting as a deterrent, before coming to a conclusion about her intelligence. I simply don't believe any minister, from any party would condone that. I will not be swayed either way without listening to the reasoning, In its protracted form. headlines can be misleading and fail to convey the intended message.....manipulation of comments is prevalent today. I read stuff now about our transfers, which is utter rubbish and I now have less faith in media reporting as ever....who actually are the ones to trust? I no more support her or condemn her.....because the reporting is so unreliable either way......if she was reported as annoucing the best thing since sliced bread, I would treat it with the contempt it deserves. Journalists today, have their own agenda, more so than ever....so I will, factor that in to my thoughts. Edited July 14, 2021 by TRO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted July 14, 2021 Share Posted July 14, 2021 1 hour ago, Stevo985 said: Everyone who boos is a racist. It really is as simple as that Same as everyone who voted for brexit, right? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Albrighton Posted July 14, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted July 14, 2021 2 minutes ago, TRO said: I will not be swayed either way without listening to the reasoning. headlines can be misleading and fail to convey the intended message.....manipulation of comments is prevalent today. I read stuff now about our transfers, which is utter rubbish and I now have less faith in media reporting as ever....who actually are the ones to trust? I no more support her or condemn her.....because the reporting is so unreliable either way......if she was reported as annoucing the best thing since sliced bread, I would treat it with the contempt it deserves. Journalists today, have their own agenda, more so than ever....so I will, factor that in to my thoughts. She was on Question Time stating her view. Live television. No journalistic prism. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ciggiesnbeer Posted July 14, 2021 Share Posted July 14, 2021 You guys really should consider what it is you are arguing here. Seriously, you really want to defend people who boo an anti racist gesture that lasts a couple of seconds? I am not religious but if I went and booed at a church or mosque or temple while others were silently praying I would expect to be labelled an anti religious bigot. Boo boys wanted to be labelled racists and so they are. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted July 14, 2021 Share Posted July 14, 2021 10 minutes ago, Mark Albrighton said: She was on Question Time stating her view. Live television. No journalistic prism. I would have to hear it to comment....but that does not mean, I am supporting her on this. If she said as you have alluded to, I would be disappointed. What was the reaction from the audience?.....albeit, Question time is hardly impartial, is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Albrighton Posted July 14, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted July 14, 2021 8 minutes ago, TRO said: I would have to hear it to comment....but that does not mean, I am supporting her on this. If she said as you have alluded to, I would be disappointed. What was the reaction from the audience?.....albeit, Question time is hardly impartial, is it? Personally, I would go and look for yourself, you would be viewing it unfiltered and not through my interpretation. It’s not a difficult clip to find online. You will most likely find Ian Hislop discussing it as he was on the panel to challenge her views. I would also suggest you look more into Priti Patel generally as I think you might ultimately reconsider how much common ground she might share with Tyrone Mings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted July 14, 2021 Share Posted July 14, 2021 25 minutes ago, ciggiesnbeer said: You guys really should consider what it is you are arguing here. Seriously, you really want to defend people who boo an anti racist gesture that lasts a couple of seconds? I am not religious but if I went and booed at a church or mosque or temple while others were silently praying I would expect to be labelled an anti religious bigot. Boo boys wanted to be labelled racists and so they are. to be honest Ciggie....I don't boo anything....I don't find it a good form of protest...but thats just me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ciggiesnbeer Posted July 14, 2021 Share Posted July 14, 2021 13 minutes ago, TRO said: to be honest Ciggie....I don't boo anything....I don't find it a good form of protest...but thats just me. Its because you are a fair minded decent bloke mate! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted July 14, 2021 Share Posted July 14, 2021 (edited) 35 minutes ago, Mark Albrighton said: Personally, I would go and look for yourself, you would be viewing it unfiltered and not through my interpretation. It’s not a difficult clip to find online. You will most likely find Ian Hislop discussing it as he was on the panel to challenge her views. I would also suggest you look more into Priti Patel generally as I think you might ultimately reconsider how much common ground she might share with Tyrone Mings. I have looked at it and despite it being 10 years ago and attitudes waiver, She supports it as a deterrent, not as an eye for an eye.....Personally, I am not in favour of capital punishment and I think she was clinging to the notion that we must be stronger in our punishment of Murderers and rapists....on that I support her. I too, think we are too soft on serious criminals, but I have not enough faith in the criminal justice system to be exacting a death penalty....something just doesn't sit right with me on that. I don't think its a simple debate, as the audience suggested, it was divided and I think we are too quick to sweep under carpet, serious crime as something we have to live with....that too is equally as unacceptable......enter dilemma. The problem with this is, you either appear to be too stringent or too lenient, but crime continues, who cares about the poor victim who has to endure heinious violence....what do we really learn, just tolerance of it.? I don't know the answer, I do sympathise with the view the death penalty is revenge....but I equally feel so opposed to violent and serious crime too. we best get back on topic. ps very little crime in Dubai, just saying maybe severe punishment maybe a deterrent. Edited July 14, 2021 by TRO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted July 14, 2021 Share Posted July 14, 2021 13 minutes ago, ciggiesnbeer said: Its because you are a fair minded decent bloke mate! try to be....like to examine both sides of an argument. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted July 14, 2021 Share Posted July 14, 2021 1 hour ago, foreveryoung said: That's like saying people who boo there team are not really fans. It's not as simple as this, an I don't understand why people would take this stance. I stick by my previous post. Well it's not really is. One the one hand you're talking about supporting a football team, which in the grand scheme of things is not important. And then you're talking about people fighting for racial equality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a m ole Posted July 14, 2021 Share Posted July 14, 2021 1 hour ago, bannedfromHandV said: Same as everyone who voted for brexit, right? No Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreveryoung Posted July 14, 2021 Share Posted July 14, 2021 3 minutes ago, DCJonah said: Well it's not really is. One the one hand you're talking about supporting a football team, which in the grand scheme of things is not important. And then you're talking about people fighting for racial equality. I just think it's a bit extreme to come to the conclusion that if you boo the taking of the knee your a racist. This is simply not true! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted July 14, 2021 Share Posted July 14, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Panto_Villan said: Out of interest, do you guys disagree with the long post made by @blandy above? If so, what do you disagree with? I ask because you both seem to be intent on being as reductionist as possible, and it means it's difficult to know if your views actually are as black and white as what you've laid out or if you just don't want to write a long post. I actually agree with all the reasons @blandygave as to why people boo. The difference is, for me, I believe there are racist undertones within all those reasons. So it simply comes back to what @Stevo985said and me agreeing with him. Deep down, booing those players is coming down to people being racist. I do wonder why booing this particular stance is being apologised for and excuses made. Would it happen if people booed other gestures that are trying to raise awareness for issues that make the world better? Is it acceptable to boo people collecting money for charity? Would we excuse people who boo people trying to raise awareness of various illnesses and disabilities? Why does this particular issue have people ready to jump to the defence of those that act in this manner towards it? * Just to add to this. I can well believe there are people who think the way Blandy described who aren't racist, but I bet my life, those people don't choose to boo it. I think there's lots of people who don't agree with the gesture or don't think it does much, who stay quiet and ignore it. To choose to publicly boo something in front of thousands of others is an incredibly strong decision when it comes to something like this. Hence my belief its coming from a place of racism. Edited July 14, 2021 by DCJonah 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted July 14, 2021 Share Posted July 14, 2021 Just now, foreveryoung said: I just think it's a bit extreme to come to the conclusion that if you boo the taking of the knee your a racist. This is simply not true! Well I believe it is. I find it odd that some of you are so keen to defend people who boo. Almost more effort defending these guys than the players actually putting themselves out there to stand for a cause they believe in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul514 Posted July 14, 2021 Share Posted July 14, 2021 2 hours ago, blandy said: I think that fans boo for a number of reasons. Some, plain racism - I've heard some horrible things on the train between New Street and Aston stations from Villa fans on match days. I'm not easily shocked, but some of the stuff on one game (before Covid) was utterly vile from a group of lads and lasses. I mean appallingly bad. Open racism has got massively worse in the past few years. Second reason is because those people think that the footballers want better treatment for Black people than for white people - kind of a "I have a really crap life, no money, crap/no job, no house...why aren't they including me/us in their kneeling?" - people who think "all lives matter". Eloquent black sportspeople (Michael Holding , for one) have said (in response to that point) "White lives already matter, we want ours to matter too" - yet I get the feeling some boo'ers think "no, not all white lives matter and no-one's campaigning for us, and I don't agree with singling out people for help based on their skin" Third reason is because they don't actually understand what the footballers want or are saying - this encompasses the "marxist campaign" idiocy. Maybe these people haven't looked closely and have just heard it's about "marxism" or for some reason have heard it isn't, but don't believe the footballers saying it's not. Fourth reason, people who think "there isn't a problem with racism in the UK, why are these people making out there's a problem when there's not, why are they calling me a racist, BLM is American Police killing people, what's it got to do with England?" So in essence I think there's racists, I think there's people who are ignorant (as in uninformed about) the campaign, I think there's people with their own grievances who feel they're kind of being pushed further down the social ladder, I think there are people who don't think there's a problem with racism in this country "it's just a few idiots and trolls, why make a thing of it, it reflects badly on us" and I think there are people who are just plain, really stupid, sheep who follow their mates in booing without ever stopping to think "why am I actually booing my own players before a game, who are all these other people clapping, but I'm not?" It's really hard to change racists into non-racists, but it can and does happen. It's really hard to convince people who aren't necessarily all that bright, or interested, that booing is wrong, and it's really hard to convince people with genuine issues they have to deal with that wanting to end racial discrimination isn't wanting to hurt white people's chances or prospects - it's just wanting everyone to have the same level playing field. BLM is a marxist organisation. Players taking a knee and saying it is about the slogan and not the political organisation are still supporting the organisation. I would boo them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted July 14, 2021 Share Posted July 14, 2021 If you have to contort yourself beyond recognition in order to oppose a 5 second anti-racism gesture, what other conclusions of you can people draw? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted July 14, 2021 Share Posted July 14, 2021 Just now, paul514 said: BLM is a marxist organisation. Players taking a knee and saying it is about the slogan and not the political organisation are still supporting the organisation. I would boo them. They're not even saying the slogan anymore. Swing and a miss. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul514 Posted July 14, 2021 Share Posted July 14, 2021 10 minutes ago, DCJonah said: Well I believe it is. I find it odd that some of you are so keen to defend people who boo. Almost more effort defending these guys than the players actually putting themselves out there to stand for a cause they believe in. So you don't get the difference between someone who isn't racist and someone who isn't 'anti racist' a leftist political outlook? Ok Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul514 Posted July 14, 2021 Share Posted July 14, 2021 Just now, Keyblade said: They're not even saying the slogan anymore. Swing and a miss. They are and they are taking the knee, the symbol of it. Why weren't these people booing the previous racism campaigns? Why can't people engage their brains on this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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