Racism in Football

[HanoiVillan]

6 minutes ago, Sam-AVFC said:

It's also ridiculous to say footballer shouldn't talk about politics, even if you're against any gestures at games. They are citizens of this country and have just as much right as anyone else to make their opinions heard. I don't hear anyone saying builders should stay in their lane and not discuss politics, but I guess that's because they don't have a public voice and are much less likely to cause a widespread shift in opinion. 

It's a standard delegitimation tactic, favoured by those who don't want to change the status quo or have to think about issues when celebrities use their platforms to raise issues. It's the same reaction that Colin Kaepernick got, that the Dixie Chicks got (the purest distillation of this tactic was in the sign, subsequently the name of their movie, that told them to 'shut up and sing'), that Muhammad Ali got, and on and on back in time.

Policing the boundary between *politics* and *entertainment* is very important to reactionaries.

[Panto_Villan]

18 minutes ago, Wainy316 said:

Pretending that anti racism messages are purely political for one moment.  What about when the racism is directly connected to the game of football itself?  Should we ignore it?

Yeah, that's the dividing line in his opinion. Both the poppies and the most recent anti-racism protests aren't talking about football in isolation. It's black equality in wider society and commemorating war dead that have nothing to do with football.

He's not had a problem with previous racism campaigns that are specifically against footballers facing racist abuse while playing football. Not does he have a problem with commemorating those that died at Hillsborough. But once you're trying to influence wider society, who gets to decide what is a suitable cause that warrants a protest?

Edited July 15, 2021 by Panto_Villan

[Panto_Villan]

14 minutes ago, Sam-AVFC said:

I'm not against the poppy campaign at all and don't have an issue with it in football, but it has become a yearly game of increasingly crass variations on the poppy and MPs carefully placing them for TV interviews. The annual game of nationalistic top trumps, rather than the campaign and cause, is why I call it a charade. I have no issue with a small poppy on a shirt and a minute's silence before games.

I don't have a problem with politics in sport, I was making the same challenge you are to me and apparently the difference is one is only once a year.

It's also ridiculous to say footballer shouldn't talk about politics, even if you're against any gestures at games. They are citizens of this country and have just as much right as anyone else to make their opinions heard. I don't hear anyone saying builders should stay in their lane and not discuss politics, but I guess that's because they don't have a public voice and are much less likely to cause a widespread shift in opinion. 

Entirely agree with you about the poppies.

And just to be clear, the argument he makes isn't that footballers shouldn't talk about politics - he's got no issue with Mings saying whatever he wants on Twitter.

The issue is just what happens on the football pitch specifically, where you're not allow to unveil a t-shirt in support of Brexit or in favour of the Labour party because of the rules against politics in football.

To be fair, he's also supportive of all politics being allowed in football. He just doesn't like the situation where the only politics allowed in football are a few specific "good" causes chosen in a completely opaque manner by a bunch of bureaucrats at the FA or FIFA.

[sparrow1988]

1 hour ago, QldVilla said:

So you need google to make a point and use your brothers wife’s 3 years in Australia of what she may or may not of experienced. Ok champ. 

You misquoted  Fraser Anning as that wasn’t what he was inferring to, but was thrown out of Parliamanet never to be seen or heard of again. Pauline Hanson has undertaken stunts before, they are stunts. The question she was asking is why are these woman being forced by their husbands to wear burkas in public, they are in Australia, there is no religious need for them to wear it, isn’t that why they came to the Australia to avoid persecution? These woman are oppressed it is well reported, she was trying to stop their oppression.

There isn’t any part of the world that hasn’t been invaded by another race, but Australia is the only country that gives $300m per year to improving the education and standards of the aboriginal people, we have many aboriginals who are great sportsman, artists , politicians etc and my best friend since primary school is also an aboriginal, his name is David.
 

David would say your extremely wide of the mark with regards to assumptions of racism of the aboriginal people. Yes they have challenges, but they are in part because they were a hunter gather people who didn’t evolve for thousands of years, like the outside world, to suddenly have to change within several generations. So maybe it’s not completely racism but the challenges of changes into a different society which was constantly evolving, oh yeah that’s right, you know all that. 
 

The aboriginal people were not enslaved, yes those in power over the past 200 years made some poor decisions with the aboriginal people, but some aboriginal leaders will tell you that the aboriginal people are doing more harm to their own people in remote areas of australia than other. In the current day.

These are the facts you don’t know about nor care because it’s not part of your narrative, is there racism, yes, but it’s not common, it’s rare. Children say the darndest things and most importantly when they repeat things they are generally out of context for which they were inferred.

PS when I was young I used to walk through the valley mall in Brisbane where I would be called a white #$&@* etc by aboriginals. Racism is not always one sided.

I have read about it before (books/newspaper/websites) and thought it was a good idea to fact check it before I posted it as you had asked me to share my thoughts on racism in Australia. As opposed to writing unsubstantiated bullshit. As for the comment from my sister in law, I have no reason to doubt the veracity of what she said, why should you? That's like me doubting that you saying that you have a friend that is an Aborigine. I have no reason to believe that it is not true so why should you doubt what I am telling you? If we're not going to take what we're saying to each other at face value then why bother discussing the topic? I'll try again anyway.

She was standing up for muslim women? If you believe that then you'll believe anything. Why, if she is so interested in women's rights is she not campaigning against a catholic nun's uniform? Anti-immigrant is a common theme throughout her politics. As for Fraser Anning, here is the article I read a few years back and an excerpt from the article. Please tell me where I said something that wasn't in this article.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-45191315 - Remember people voted this guy in to the senate and therefore he is representative of a portion of Australian society.

An Australian senator has been widely condemned for a speech that invoked the term "final solution" in a call for immigration restrictions based on race.

Fraser Anning, from the conservative Katter's Australian Party, called for migration bans on Muslims and others in his maiden Senate speech on Tuesday.

Political opponents denounced his speech as "disgraceful". Mr Anning said he did not need to apologise.

"Final solution" was a term infamously used by the Nazis during the Holocaust.

In his speech, Mr Anning said "the final solution to the immigration problem is a popular vote".

On Wednesday, lawmakers across the political divide moved to pass parliamentary motions censuring Mr Anning for his "racist hate speech", noting in particular his use of the phrase "final solution", and his "false, misleading and hurtful statements" about Muslim Australians and other immigrant groups.

Also, there are many parts of the world which were never invaded by a different race. Ireland for example was invaded a few times. Always by white people (the Vikings, the Normans and then the British). The UK by the Vikings, the Normans and the Romans (all white, granted the Romans had a bit of a tan but they are from the Mediteranean).

Re the aboriginal people - of course they have challenges due to being oppressed, vilified and discriminated against for centuries. And of course they have trouble integrating. Is it possible that they have trouble integrating because their country was invaded, taken away from them (terra nullius) and they were forced to completely change their way of life or face not being allowed become part of this great new society? And just because Australia has relatively recently started to fund these communities doesn't mean they are going to automatically flick a switch and all of a sudden trust their oppressors of the last 200 years? But how wide of the mark was I by saying that they were displaced and that there is an anti-aborigine rhetoric in the country caused by policies such as the White Australia Policy of the past? Is that not true?

I know some of the facts. I know that there are low rates of literacy and numeracy, high rates of alcoholism, suicide, crime within the aboriginal communties. I know that Australia funds these communities through reparations or some similar system. I also know that they are very poorly integrated in to society.

And for the racial abuse that you suffered, I am sorry to hear that. IMO, the root cause of that is also the white people's treatment of the Aboriginals in the preceding 200 years and the fact that they don't trust the white man but seriously why would they?

[Keyblade]

18 hours ago, foreveryoung said:

Quote

Second paragraph in: "We’re guided by a commitment to dismantle imperialism, capitalism, white-supremacy, patriarchy and the state structures that disproportionately harm black people in Britain and around the world."

After reading that mate, I certainly don't support BLM.

Which part was so egregious? The only thing I can see any reasonable person not agreeing with there is capitalism, but then again I also  can't see any reasonable person rescinding their support for a movement because of something like that.

[Keyblade]

7 hours ago, Mark Albrighton said:

I suggested in here that if the players were kneeling to support and bring awareness to the country’s underprivileged, hungry children…how much would people boo and jeer then? I’m going to go out on a limb and say not much. 

And someone, apologies I forget who, validly pointed out that a campaign with the aim of helping disadvantaged children has far more in common with “Marxism” than a campaign for racial equality.

It's funny because Marxism is often criticized for its "class reductionism" and failure to consider racial and other social struggles, but now is apparently the main driving force behind a campaign for racial equality according to people who totally understand what Marxism is.

[blandy]

3 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

Which part was so egregious? The only thing I can see any reasonable person not agreeing with there is capitalism

To be fair, there's a bit more than that (in my view). They're not obliged to be constructive, to have kind of alternative proposals as to how things should or could be done/run, but here's an example of my thinking

Quote

  a commitment to dismantle...the state structures that disproportionately harm black people in Britain and around the world.

The school system and universities - the outcomes for black kids are not good as much as we'd like, in terms of people getting exams results and qualifications.

The Health service - the  outcomes for Black people are also not as good as we'd hope.

You could go on and list loads of areas where looking purely at stats for ethnic background and then outcomes, or numbers of people employed in X industry and so on.. and it would appear that these areas are, in the aim of BLM, to be dismantled. Like I say they are not obliged to have solutions, but I feel there's quite a bit of over-reach, or lack of actually thinking it through to any kind of credible depth about their "manifesto". There are huge areas of capitalism which are harmful in all sorts of ways, but also ways in which it is a good system.

My perspective is that to achieve equality it's more a case of altering, than dismantling, in most instances. Dismantling the NHS or schools will not solve either intentional or unintentional discrimination. It is necessary to have a better alternative to "sell" to people to get them to accept that your (BLM) aims in those areas are worth pursuing and supporting.

Of course it's easy to say' treat people equally and fairly, regardless of skin colour, God knows why everyone doesn't feel that way", but as exciting as "smash the system" sounds, it's not a solution to anything. In the case of the USA and for example some City or county or even state policing, some of it seems so rotten and so awful that "defund the police" in a particular town or City may actually be the best solution - essentially disband it and start again, with a completely different method of maintaining order and adherence to Law, but mostly it's more a case of serious reform being actually implemented, rather than weasel words and nothing ever changing because the people at the top are not really interested.

[a m ole]

Funnily enough, the ramblings of @paul514 and @QldVilla have definitely helped change my mind on one thing, because I previously was in support of stopping the knee in agreement with Wilfried Zaha that it was somewhat performative and doesn’t represent action.

Now I’m convinced it should continue forever, if only to piss off self-righteous boo boys until they **** off.

Edited July 15, 2021 by a m ole

[Keyblade]

Saka saying he knew instantly the hate he'd be subjected to after he missed the penalty shows that @maqroll was absolutely spot on. It was so obvious it would happen. All the people who were getting on his back for saying it are the same ones who like to downplay racism and play devil's advocate, when the proof is in the pudding. 

[AvonVillain]

3 hours ago, Panto_Villan said:

once you're trying to influence wider society, who gets to decide what is a suitable cause that warrants a protest?

This comes close to my interest in this subject, which has waned greatly over the pages! And how can you possibly predict how wider society will react (like Brexit) over a period of time? You can't, because human behaviour is complex and messy and confusing, so, better to make cheap shots, come to simplistic, intractable conclusions, and not trouble yourself further. I'm astonished by the posters who believe that taking the knee is 'obviously working' at this moment in time. I'm not sure how much more evidence we need that it isn't.

[Ingram85]

“You can protest but only for the things I agree with and in the way I agree with”.

That’s all I hear when people ignorantly blather on like babies about “it’s marxism” or “it doesn’t do anything”. 

[AvonVillain]

1 hour ago, Keyblade said:

Which part was so egregious? The only thing I can see any reasonable person not agreeing with there is capitalism, but then again I also  can't see any reasonable person rescinding their support for a movement because of something like that.

Unless you're somewhere in the centre or right. Not quite certain what the hoo-ha is over this either personally, but, I guess it does become more overtly political in message, so beyond the pale for some.

[Follyfoot]

34 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

Saka saying he knew instantly the hate he'd be subjected to after he missed the penalty shows that @maqroll was absolutely spot on. It was so obvious it would happen. All the people who were getting on his back for saying it are the same ones who like to downplay racism and play devil's advocate, when the proof is in the pudding. 

I quoted @maqrollsaying nonsense after he posted this, I could not believe anyone would be thinking along those lines after we **** up the best chance we have had at winning a tournament in my lifetime and also highly pissed off with losing. I was obviously wrong but do not you dare ever point the finger of being a racist at my door please 

Edited July 15, 2021 by Follyfoot

[DCJonah]

3 minutes ago, Follyfoot said:

I quoted @maqrollsaying nonsense after he posted this, I could not believe anyone would be thinking along those lines after we **** up the best chance we have had at winning a tournament in my lifetime and also highly pissed off with losing. I was obviously wrong but do not you dare ever point the finger of being a racist at my door please 

He didn't. He said those that downplay racism.

[Keyblade]

15 minutes ago, Follyfoot said:

I quoted @maqrollsaying nonsense after he posted this, I could not believe anyone would be thinking along those lines after we **** up the best chance we have had at winning a tournament in my lifetime and also highly pissed off with losing. I was obviously wrong but do not you dare ever point the finger of being a racist at my door please 

I didn't call anyone a racist.

How could you not believe anybody would be thinking along those lines, when the player himself had the exact same thought after he missed?

[Follyfoot]

Just now, Keyblade said:

I didn't call anyone a racist.

How could you not believe anybody would be thinking along those lines, when the player himself had the exact same thought after he missed?

The post came around 4 minutes after he missed and I called his post nonsense as I honestly did not think any sane individual could go down that line of thinking on a thread regarding the Euro cup final and so soon after the event

 

As stated I was wrong but as one of the main culprits  as one of those who 'got on his back' I thought I would  I put the record straight 

[Davkaus]

The reality is, if you're not a straight, white, able-bodied male, you probably face prejudice and discrimination most days in the UK, usually in "minor" ways and not outright abuse and hostility, but it's always lurking just below the surface. Yet it's almost exclusively a bunch of straight, white (well, reddish) able-bodied males who feel the need to tell some black players how they ought to protest, and somehow they're so hard of thinking, they don't see a problem with that.

It's easy to not notice there's a problem when it doesn't affect you, but when the people it does affect tell you about their experiences, you look like a right word removed when instead of listening, you talk about how it's not a big problem in the UK, and maybe instead of protesting like this, you should do, blah blah blah...

 

Edit: Despite its position on the page, this was a general post about booers, marxist critics, and so on, and not directly aimed at a poster, promise  

Edited July 15, 2021 by Davkaus

[foreveryoung]

2 hours ago, Keyblade said:

Which part was so egregious? The only thing I can see any reasonable person not agreeing with there is capitalism, but then again I also  can't see any reasonable person rescinding their support for a movement because of something like that.

Are you for real. Have you read it all, just picked out a random example. I think we are all fighting a losing battle if they think like this.

.Black communities are hardest hit by the Coronavirus pandemic. Black people are dying at up to four times the rate of their white counterparts. This is racism.

[fruitvilla]

19 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

Black people are dying at up to four times the rate of their white counterparts. This is racism.

I don't think it is as simple as that. The following also may play a role:

• Health
• Genetics
• Education
• Poverty/Wealth

I am sure we could have other confounding narratives that confound the simplistic view (though not necessarily incorrect) of it's racism.

Edited July 15, 2021 by fruitvilla
added have

[foreveryoung]

1 minute ago, fruitvilla said:

I don't think it is as simple as that. The following also may play a role:

• Health
• Genetics
• Education
• Poverty/Wealth

I am sure we could other confounding narratives that confound the simplistic view (though not necessarily incorrect) of it's racism.

This is quoted from the BLM Gofundme page chap.