foreveryoung Posted July 14, 2021 Share Posted July 14, 2021 3 minutes ago, a m ole said: No. BLMGN is an organisation that has some Marxist beliefs. BLM is a movement not an organisation, started after the acquittal of George Zimmerman. It has nothing to do with Marxism. ‘Black lives matter’ is a phrase that means that black people are just as important as everyone else and should not be subjected to prejudice or abuse because of their colour. You are the problem. At least were getting to the bottom of why fans are booing, yeah? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a m ole Posted July 14, 2021 Share Posted July 14, 2021 (edited) Just now, foreveryoung said: At least were getting to the bottom of why fans are booing, yeah? It is becoming clear, definitely. Edited July 14, 2021 by a m ole 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted July 14, 2021 Share Posted July 14, 2021 1 minute ago, a m ole said: It is becoming clear, definitely. It's always been obvious. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreveryoung Posted July 14, 2021 Share Posted July 14, 2021 31 minutes ago, DCJonah said: Well I believe it is. I find it odd that some of you are so keen to defend people who boo. Almost more effort defending these guys than the players actually putting themselves out there to stand for a cause they believe in. I'm hardly defending them, they are still idiots, I certainly wouldn't boo. But as I have said, it does reflect the country as being systematically racist, which is why I don't agree with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted July 14, 2021 Share Posted July 14, 2021 Always relevant: 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted July 14, 2021 Share Posted July 14, 2021 9 minutes ago, foreveryoung said: I'm hardly defending them, they are still idiots, I certainly wouldn't boo. But as I have said, it does reflect the country as being systematically racist, which is why I don't agree with it. Taking the knee or the booing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul514 Posted July 14, 2021 Share Posted July 14, 2021 21 minutes ago, ciggiesnbeer said: I dont see where. BLM is a grass roots organization so it has many voices of course, but I see no reference to marxism here or anywhere on this site ? If you have a link I am happy to discuss it!https://blacklivesmatter.com/about/ As the only person who didn't just do a ridiculous pile on, here are a couple of article links for you.https://fee.org/articles/is-black-lives-matter-marxist-no-and-yes/https://nypost.com/2020/06/25/blm-co-founder-describes-herself-as-trained-marxist/ Also the website used to state it was a marxist organisation, that wanted to change the nuclear family, defund the police and so on..... However I am already done with this thread due to not wanting to deal with a continuous mass of posts. Final thought for everyone who isn't 'ciggiesandbeer', IF there is a big problem with racism in the UK then jumping on people wanting to have a good faith conversation isn't the way to bring it about, you haven't changed my views and now you don't have the opportunity to do so. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreveryoung Posted July 14, 2021 Share Posted July 14, 2021 5 minutes ago, DCJonah said: Taking the knee or the booing? Taking the knee. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panto_Villan Posted July 14, 2021 Share Posted July 14, 2021 15 minutes ago, DCJonah said: I actually agree with all the reasons @blandygave as to why people boo. The difference is, for me, I believe there are racist undertones within all those reasons. So it simply comes back to what @Stevo985said and me agreeing with him. Deep down, booing those players is coming down to people being racist. I do wonder why booing this particular stance is being apologised for and excuses made. Would it happen if people booed other gestures that are trying to raise awareness for issues that make the world better? Is it acceptable to boo people collecting money for charity? Would we excuse people who boo people trying to raise awareness of various illnesses and disabilities? Why does this particular issue have people ready to jump to the defence of those that act in this manner towards it? * Just to add to this. I can well believe there are people who think the way Blandy described who aren't racist, but I bet my life, those people don't choose to boo it. I think there's lots of people who don't agree with the gesture or don't think it does much, who stay quiet and ignore it. To choose to publicly boo something in front of thousands of others is an incredibly strong decision when it comes to something like this. Hence my belief its coming from a place of racism. Fair enough, thanks for the answer. I wouldn't disagree with the statement that all of those reasons (except possibly the one where the stupid person is just going along with his friends) have racist undertones, and I'm guessing that @blandy wouldn't either. I'm not posting here to excuse their actions, I'm just interested in whether any of them might change their mind in the future given the right circumstances. Just for clarity, the point I'd make is that all but the first category of person he listed (those primarily motivated by hating black people) isn't necessarily fully committed to the path of racism, and in other circumstances might not do or think racist things. In my book that means they are being racist, but as their motivation isn't actually that they hate black people they're not a racist - they have other grievances that are causing them to act in a racist manner. So although they are acting like racists now, they won't necessarily behave that way forever. When you said in your post "coming from a place of racism" did you mean you think only people in the first category would have strong enough feelings to boo at a match? Or do you agree with what I said, but we're just using the terminology differently? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreveryoung Posted July 14, 2021 Share Posted July 14, 2021 4 minutes ago, paul514 said: As the only person who didn't just do a ridiculous pile on, here are a couple of article links for you.https://fee.org/articles/is-black-lives-matter-marxist-no-and-yes/https://nypost.com/2020/06/25/blm-co-founder-describes-herself-as-trained-marxist/ Also the website used to state it was a marxist organisation, that wanted to change the nuclear family, defund the police and so on..... However I am already done with this thread due to not wanting to deal with a continuous mass of posts. Final thought for everyone who isn't 'ciggiesandbeer', IF there is a big problem with racism in the UK then jumping on people wanting to have a good faith conversation isn't the way to bring it about, you haven't changed my views and now you don't have the opportunity to do so. Chap I'm no supporter of the taking of the knee, but one thing I know is that it's not supposed to be related to the BLM movement, it's for the "no room for racism" campaign. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted July 14, 2021 Share Posted July 14, 2021 4 minutes ago, foreveryoung said: Chap I'm no supporter of the taking of the knee, but one thing I know is that it's not supposed to be related to the BLM movement, it's for the "no room for racism" campaign. It was initially but that relationship was severed pretty sharpish once all these negative connotations started to surface. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted July 14, 2021 Share Posted July 14, 2021 10 minutes ago, foreveryoung said: Taking the knee. I do find it odd that you associate it with that. For me, I've always linked it to a global issue, in which England is just part of it. Like when George Flloyd was murdered, there were worldwide protests, not because it was happening in all countries exactly, but because racial equality is still a major issue worldwide. Like climate change, at the moment it's not a massive issue or concern where I'm from, but that doesn't stop me from seeing it as a global issue and being behind ideas to change it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreveryoung Posted July 14, 2021 Share Posted July 14, 2021 Just now, Keyblade said: It was initially but that relationship was severed pretty sharpish once all these negative connotations started to surface. Well lots don't know this obviously. I take it now listening to some, they are booing BLM thinking it's all about that, and are not all racists as some are making out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a m ole Posted July 14, 2021 Share Posted July 14, 2021 14 minutes ago, paul514 said: As the only person who didn't just do a ridiculous pile on, here are a couple of article links for you.https://fee.org/articles/is-black-lives-matter-marxist-no-and-yes/https://nypost.com/2020/06/25/blm-co-founder-describes-herself-as-trained-marxist/ Also the website used to state it was a marxist organisation, that wanted to change the nuclear family, defund the police and so on..... However I am already done with this thread due to not wanting to deal with a continuous mass of posts. Final thought for everyone who isn't 'ciggiesandbeer', IF there is a big problem with racism in the UK then jumping on people wanting to have a good faith conversation isn't the way to bring it about, you haven't changed my views and now you don't have the opportunity to do so. Patrisse Cullors is the co-founder of Black Lives Matters Global Network, an organisation created in the wake of the Black Lives Matter movement. She does not speak for the movement. You’re not engaging in good faith, you’re consistently ignoring everything you’re being educated on. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted July 14, 2021 Share Posted July 14, 2021 1 minute ago, foreveryoung said: Well lots don't know this obviously. I take it now listening to some, they are booing BLM thinking it's all about that, and are not all racists as some are making out. See, I think if people are well read enough to understand why they are against BLM, then I find it hard to believe they haven't seen football move away from it. For me it's just another excuse to hide deep rooted racism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted July 14, 2021 Share Posted July 14, 2021 1 minute ago, a m ole said: Patrisse Cullors is the co-founder of Black Lives Matters Global Network, an organisation created in the wake of the Black Lives Matter movement. She does not speak for the movement. You’re not engaging in good faith, you’re consistently ignoring everything you’re being educated on. Which is why @paul514has made his weak excuse to leave the discussion and make out like we've ruined the chance to change his mjnd. It's what they do. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted July 14, 2021 Share Posted July 14, 2021 16 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said: Fair enough, thanks for the answer. I wouldn't disagree with the statement that all of those reasons (except possibly the one where the stupid person is just going along with his friends) have racist undertones, and I'm guessing that @blandy wouldn't either. I'm not posting here to excuse their actions, I'm just interested in whether any of them might change their mind in the future given the right circumstances. Just for clarity, the point I'd make is that all but the first category of person he listed (those primarily motivated by hating black people) isn't necessarily fully committed to the path of racism, and in other circumstances might not do or think racist things. In my book that means they are being racist, but as their motivation isn't actually that they hate black people they're not a racist - they have other grievances that are causing them to act in a racist manner. So although they are acting like racists now, they won't necessarily behave that way forever. When you said in your post "coming from a place of racism" did you mean you think only people in the first category would have strong enough feelings to boo at a match? Or do you agree with what I said, but we're just using the terminology differently? I am kind of on board with your way of thinking but when I talk about racism, I don't always mean it as so extreme as hating Black people. I agree that not all people will act that way forever, this is where education is important. And I'm not talking about "Oh I didn't know the N word was bad, now I do sorry," people need to learn the impact this has on others and learn empathy towards people different to themselves. I do strongly believe that those booing the gesture deep down, do so because of racist ideas and beliefs. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted July 14, 2021 Share Posted July 14, 2021 5 minutes ago, foreveryoung said: Well lots don't know this obviously. I take it now listening to some, they are booing BLM thinking it's all about that, and are not all racists as some are making out. Which is just ignorance then. You don't exactly need to do a Masters thesis on when and why the association changed. You can kind of tell if you just watch football matches that BLM is not mentioned anymore. The shirts have the No Room For Racism badge etc, and the commentators all say variations of the line "the players are taking the knee in the fight against racism". If people see all that and still think of a certain organization, surely that's on them right? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panto_Villan Posted July 14, 2021 Share Posted July 14, 2021 (edited) 53 minutes ago, ciggiesnbeer said: I dont see where. BLM is a grass roots organization so it has many voices of course, but I see no reference to marxism here or anywhere on this site ? If you have a link I am happy to discuss it!https://blacklivesmatter.com/about/ Just to answer your request for info - the UK branch of BLM is pretty explicit about their anti-capitalist stance on their GoFundMe page: https://uk.gofundme.com/f/ukblm-fund Second paragraph in: "We’re guided by a commitment to dismantle imperialism, capitalism, white-supremacy, patriarchy and the state structures that disproportionately harm black people in Britain and around the world." I think it's perfectly possible to be anti-racist and not agree with the full agenda of the BLM organisation (as distinct from the generic social movement). It's pretty extreme in places. Edited July 14, 2021 by Panto_Villan 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a m ole Posted July 14, 2021 Share Posted July 14, 2021 (edited) edit; this isn’t going to go anywhere. also if you respond to this with a laughing emoji, you’re an idiot. Edited July 14, 2021 by a m ole 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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