Racism in Football

[a m ole]

5 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

You have very strong views and that's fine, but I feel you are disrespecting alot of people when not knowing the reason why, an this is what we need to find out. I very much doubt everyone who boos is a racist, an to think they are is just wrong.

I think it's very basic, in that they think it's linked to BLM and they believe it should be that all lives matter. I'm all for anything to help the cause, but "black lives matter" just does not sit right with people, even the anti racists.

I’m saying if they’re not racist, and “black lives matter” doesn’t sit right with people, then they’re being purposefully obtuse, ignorant and contrarian for effect.

It’s very simple, stop linking the protest to BLMGN and their inner turmoil will go away. It’s an entirely ‘them’ problem because no one else is.

Arguing semantics for something they’ve invented in their head is idiotic.

Edited July 14, 2021 by a m ole

[foreveryoung]

6 minutes ago, a m ole said:

I’m saying if they’re not racist, and “black lives matter” doesn’t sit right with people, then they’re being purposefully obtuse, ignorant and contrarian for effect.

It’s very simple, stop linking the protest to BLMGN and their inner turmoil will go away. It’s an entirely ‘them’ problem because no one else is.

Arguing semantics for something they’ve invented in their head is idiotic.

It is and I totally understand your point, I really think they believe it is linked to BLM. But how are we going to get this across to them.

[a m ole]

3 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

It is and I totally understand your point, I really think they believe it is linked to BLM. But how are we going to get this across to them.

I honestly don’t know, but stopping it seems like the worst thing to do.

[blandy]

5 hours ago, AvonVillain said:

do you/anyone really believe that the Vila fans who booed the taking of the knee at VP were all acting out of racist beliefs? Because I don't. So you have to contend with the question: Why were they booing?

I think that fans boo for a number of reasons. Some, plain racism - I've heard some horrible things on the train between New Street and Aston stations from Villa fans on match days. I'm not easily shocked, but some of the stuff on one game (before Covid) was utterly vile from a group of lads and lasses. I mean appallingly bad. Open racism has got massively worse in the past few years.

Second reason is because those people think that the footballers want better treatment for Black people than for white people - kind of a "I have a really crap life, no money, crap/no job, no house...why aren't they including me/us in their kneeling?" - people who think "all lives matter". Eloquent black sportspeople (Michael Holding , for one) have said (in response to that point) "White lives already matter, we want ours to matter too" - yet I get the feeling some boo'ers think "no, not all white lives matter and no-one's campaigning for us, and I don't agree with singling out people for help based on their skin"

Third reason is because they don't actually understand what the footballers want or are saying - this encompasses the "marxist campaign" idiocy. Maybe these people haven't looked closely and have just heard it's about "marxism" or for some reason have heard it isn't, but don't believe the footballers saying it's not.

Fourth reason, people who think "there isn't a problem with racism in the UK, why are these people making out there's a problem when there's not, why are they calling me a racist, BLM is American Police killing people, what's it got to do with England?"

So in essence I think there's racists, I think there's people who are ignorant (as in uninformed about) the campaign, I think there's people with their own grievances who feel they're kind of being pushed further down the social ladder, I think there are people who don't think there's a problem with racism in this country "it's just a few idiots and trolls, why make a thing of it, it reflects badly on us" and I think there are people who are just plain, really stupid, sheep who follow their mates in booing without ever stopping to think "why am I actually booing my own players before a game, who are all these other people clapping, but I'm not?"

It's really hard to change racists into non-racists, but it can and does happen. It's really hard to convince people who aren't necessarily all that bright, or interested, that booing is wrong, and it's really hard to convince people with genuine issues they have to deal with that wanting to end racial discrimination isn't wanting to hurt white people's chances or prospects - it's just wanting everyone to have the same level playing field.

[Stevo985]

1 hour ago, foreveryoung said:

You have very strong views and that's fine, but I feel you are disrespecting alot of people when not knowing the reason why, an this is what we need to find out. I very much doubt everyone who boos is a racist, an to think they are is just wrong.

I think it's very basic, in that they think it's linked to BLM and they believe it should be that all lives matter. I'm all for anything to help the cause, but "black lives matter" just does not sit right with people, even the anti racists.

Everyone who boos is a racist. It really is as simple as that

[Keyblade]

I always felt the "Marxist/socialist" excuse to be quite weak. No only because it's just inaccurate, but even if it were true, we're hardly talking about some universally abhorrent outlook like Nazism or something. It's an economic view that someone could completely disagree with, but it's hardly something that would make you reject an anti-racism movement surely? Like, if they were libertarians (an economic view that is pretty much antithetical to my personal beliefs), I wouldn't bat an eyelid, because opposing racism far outweighs my disagreement there (by a landslide).

[foreveryoung]

Just now, Stevo985 said:

Everyone who boos is a racist. It really is as simple as that

It's not that simple and you know it, also not true!!

There are plenty of people who don't support BLM the movement, does not mean they are racists at all. I would never boo the knee, but I don't support it, as it's stating we as a country are systematically racist and I don't believe that.

[blandy]

5 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

we're hardly talking about some universally abhorrent outlook like Nazism or something.

I was thoroughly in favour of and heartened by the booing of the Tory, George Osborne, and others during the 2012 Olympics. I don't think we need to go to political extremes to find good reason to boo political outlooks/politicians. Christ I'd give the current lot a volley of abuse, given the chance.

[TRO]

Racisim for me is abhorrent and I suspect it is a by product of another disgusting behaviour of Bullying.

Racism usually is distinguished by the colour of someones skin, which is beyond belief in itself, but bullying covers a multitude of sins....people get singled out by cowards for a variety of reasons and for me its usually folk who 

have a flawed personality trait or a motivation by power.....many folk of the same skin colour are subjected to bullying, many are intimidated and put down, buy their so called own......this is all a very complicated subject to deal with, rich and poor is another distinction to address.

It is far from easy to eradicate or even deal with....some guillty parties don't even see themselves as wrong or at fault....its an enigma, that is difficult to deal with.....so how can a few one lines from intelligent folk like Pritty and Tyrone, expect to agree on it.

I have respect for Tyrone Mings and Pritty patel, because in their own ways they are both singing off the same Hymn sheet, but they have different agendas to address.....both can be right, from their own perspective, thats when its good to talk.

I would like to see Tyrone and Pritty sit down, talk to each other and explain their views in relation to their own personal challenges and responsibilities.

I have a suspicion, they will end up agreeing on many points, but making headlines through the media, is hardly a place to understand each others stance.

 

Edited July 14, 2021 by TRO

[Keyblade]

11 minutes ago, blandy said:

I was thoroughly in favour of and heartened by the booing of the Tory, George Osborne, and others during the 2012 Olympics. I don't think we need to go to political extremes to find good reason to boo political outlooks/politicians. Christ I'd give the current lot a volley of abuse, given the chance.

Yeah but if conservatives were leading the fight against racism, I wouldn't boo though, which is the point I was shoddily trying to make.

[TRO]

58 minutes ago, blandy said:

I think that fans boo for a number of reasons. Some, plain racism - I've heard some horrible things on the train between New Street and Aston stations from Villa fans on match days. I'm not easily shocked, but some of the stuff on one game (before Covid) was utterly vile from a group of lads and lasses. I mean appallingly bad. Open racism has got massively worse in the past few years.

Second reason is because people think that the footballers want better treatment for Black people than for white people - kind of a "I have a really crap life, no money, crap/no job, no house...why aren't they including me/us in their kneeling?" - people who think "all lives matter". Eloquent black sportspeople (Michael Holding , for one) have said (in response to that point) "White lives already matter, we want ours to matter too" - yet I get the feeling some boo'ers think "no, not all white lives matter and no-one's campaigning for us, and I don't agree with singling out people for help based on their skin"

Third reason is because they don't actually understand what the footballers want or are saying - this encompasses the "marxist campaign" idiocy. Maybe these people haven't looked closely and have just heard it's about "marxism" or for some reason have heard it isn't, but don't believe the footballers saying it's not.

Fourth reason, people who think "there isn't a problem with racism in the UK, why are these people making out there's a problem when there's not, why are they calling me a racist, BLM is American Police killing people, what's it got to do with England?"

So in essence I think there's racists, I think there's people who are ignorant (as in uninformed about) the campaign, I think there's people with their own grievances who feel they're kind of being pushed further down the social ladder, I think there are people who don't think there's a problem with racism in this country "it's just a few idiots and trolls, why make a thing of it, it reflects badly on us" and I think there are people who are just plain, really stupid, sheep who follow their mates in booing without ever stopping to think "why am I actually booing my own players before a game, who are all these other people clapping, but I'm not?"

It's really hard to change racists into non-racists, but it can and does happen. It's really hard to convince people who aren't necessarily all that bright, or interested, that booing is wrong, and it's really hard to convince people with genuine issues they have to deal with that wanting to end racial discrimination isn't wanting to hurt white people's chances or prospects - it's just wanting everyone to have the same level playing field.

very good post pete and very apt.

Its a really difficult subject to address, without feeling vulnerable to being misunderstood.

I do think intelligence and education is a huge factor on both sides of any argument and I think you cover the issues as to why, very well.

I get disappointed when 2 people as well versed in eduacation as Tyrone and Pritty can't discuss things privately, because I do not believe either are racist and both are as anxious to root it out, as the other.

I can disagree with a Villa fan, doesn't make me anti- Villa.

Edited July 14, 2021 by TRO

[TRO]

1 hour ago, foreveryoung said:

It is and I totally understand your point, I really think they believe it is linked to BLM. But how are we going to get this across to them.

so many misconceptions and misunderstandings, but folk are still happy to form opinions despite such things.

If so many folk opened their minds, to debate as opposed to closing it to dogma, more could be solved.

[DCJonah]

28 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

Everyone who boos is a racist. It really is as simple as that

Yep. People can start to justify it and excuse it but ultimately it comes down to this. 

[TRO]

7 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

Yep. People can start to justify it and excuse it but ultimately it comes down to this. 

I would not boo....but your conclusion is too simple. imo.

[foreveryoung]

9 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

Yep. People can start to justify it and excuse it but ultimately it comes down to this. 

That's like saying people who boo there team are not really fans. It's not as simple as this, an I don't understand why people would take this stance. I stick by my previous post.

[Mark Albrighton]

31 minutes ago, TRO said:

It is far from easy to eradicate or even deal with....some guillty parties don't even see themselves as wrong or at fault....its an enigma, that is difficult to deal with.....so how can a few one lines from intelligent folk like Pritty and Tyrone, expect to agree on it.

Probably worth revisiting Patel’s death penalty argument about killing innocent people acting as a deterrent, before coming to a conclusion about her intelligence.

[bobzy]

8 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

That's like saying people who boo there team are not really fans. It's not as simple as this, an I don't understand why people would take this stance. I stick by my previous post.

There’s a difference between not supporting something and being vocally against it. 

[ciggiesnbeer]

If they dont want to appear as racists and have some reason why they oppose taking the knee then there is a simple solution:

They should remain silent , avert their eyes or chat with their friends for a few seconds.

problem solved.





 

[Panto_Villan]

9 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

Yep. People can start to justify it and excuse it but ultimately it comes down to this. 

 

40 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

Everyone who boos is a racist. It really is as simple as that

Out of interest, do you guys disagree with the long post made by @blandy above? If so, what do you disagree with?

I ask because you both seem to be intent on being as reductionist as possible, and it means it's difficult to know if your views actually are as black and white as what you've laid out or if you just don't want to write a long post.

[TRO]

34 minutes ago, blandy said:

I was thoroughly in favour of and heartened by the booing of the Tory, George Osborne, and others during the 2012 Olympics. I don't think we need to go to political extremes to find good reason to boo political outlooks/politicians. Christ I'd give the current lot a volley of abuse, given the chance.

I wouldn't...without going in to chapter and verse.

There is no a political party ever, that has no attracted criticism of some sort....but when we vote, one party gets in and the notion is that the rest accept the result and get on with life....thats how it used to be.

If that party is no good, the majority of the nation vote them out, rinse and repeat.

Who ever is in power, reserves the right to get on with it and not be hampered by what is deemed to be opposition, when in fact its nothing more than superficial antagonism and disruption....thats not opposition in the intended way, its just bitterness at losing an election.

They have been instrumental in the organisation of tackling one of the worst Pandemics this country has ever seen,and resulted in vaccinating the country in unprecedented capacity they have created one of the most socialistic moves of any Tory government ever, in "furlough"...something, I could never see any Tory Government agreeing to.....and Brexit was teetering on the abyss and was rescued, but ministers with fortitude and political expediency.

Like a football team Pete, Governments /parties, have good ministers and bad ones, but you make your own mind up, as folk do.....not much changes does it.