Racism in Football

[tomav84]

Just now, 7392craig said:

So it’s support the knee or you’re a racist? Genuine question.

nope...but i would say that if you oppose it citing reasons of a mythical association with BLM you are

[Rolta]

2 minutes ago, 7392craig said:

So it’s support the knee or you’re a racist? Genuine question.

The question is more clearly put, do you support anti racism or not?

[sparrow1988]

1 hour ago, QldVilla said:

They may of said that, but the reality is this didn’t start 2 years ago, it started in reaction to the riots in the US.

A lot of people around the world have an issue with the politics of BLM, you can quote the right wing media etc, but normal people actually research something they don’t know or understand and you don’t need to go far past their landing page to know it isn’t with the expectations of mainstream society.

You can use the word submission to spin a narrative, but he said nothing racist.

Do I agree with him, no. But I’m not going to stand by and watch a nobody label someone a racist because of a post on social media. It’s cowardly just like those who make racist statements about these players.

You need to think about what type of community you want, if you want to call out racists great, but that also comes with calling out those who mislabel individuals just because you don’t like what they said.

 

PS Just because Southgate came out and said it’s not to do with BLM, the normal person don’t swallow everything they are told, they see the evidence. They need to keep educating the public on why they are making this stance and work hard to win those over to show it’s important to the players, that’s how you change the people minds that its a genuine platform.

The knee started way before the black lives matter movement. I haven't a clue when but I remember seeing pictures/footage of Martin Luther King and his supporters doing it. I wouldn't be surprised if it goes back even further. And to be fair just because someone started a website called BLM where they state a few socialist policies doesn't mean that everyone protesting for racial equality is a flaming marxist. Like the poster above said, even the "no taxes" republicans in California support the black lives matter movement because they understand it is do with racial inequality, not turning everyone into a socialist.

I'm not spinning any narrative. Lilico knew exactly what he was saying by using the word submission. It in no way fits into the context of what he is saying. He's an intelligent bloke and knows what connotations that word contains. Either that or he's an idiot and tried to use a big word and ended up looking like a racist.

And as for your PS, while agreeing with the second part, the first part is almost conpiracy theory stuff. You're saying that they need to keep telling the people why they continue protesting, but, at the same time when they do tell people, the normal people see the "evidence". What is this evidence? I have seen nothing to suggest that it is nothing more than a protest against racism.

Edited July 14, 2021 by sparrow1988

[7392craig]

1 minute ago, tomav84 said:

nope...but i would say that if you oppose it citing reasons of a mythical association with BLM you are

Its association with BLM is already there.  It may have moved on, but footballers will struggle to say it’s just about online abuse.

[7392craig]

3 minutes ago, Rolta said:

The question is more clearly put, do you support anti racism or not?

I’m 100% anti racism. I’m not convinced that all people who oppose the knee are racists, as is the claim. Booing is another matter.

[tomav84]

1 minute ago, 7392craig said:

Its association with BLM is already there.  It may have moved on, but footballers will struggle to say it’s just about online abuse.

so a football gives their reasons for doing a gesture, indicates it has nothing to do with any organisation, and instead than accepting that reason, you decide to create an association that the individuals themselves have repeatedly said doesn't exist?

[Rolta]

2 minutes ago, 7392craig said:

I’m 100% anti racism. I’m not convinced that all people who oppose the knee are racists, as is the claim. Booing is another matter.

I agree, they're definitely not necessarily racist, but they've been naively sucked up by the disingenuous among us and above us (more above us really) who love a culture war. Divide and conquer. Taking the knee is not because of what they've been told. 

Edited July 14, 2021 by Rolta

[tomav84]

2 minutes ago, 7392craig said:

I’m 100% anti racism. I’m not convinced that all people who oppose the knee are racists, as is the claim. Booing is another matter.

if you oppose, not just be indifferent to, but actually OPPOSE any form of anti racism gesture (whether you do it silently or vocally) you are a racist, IMO

[7392craig]

9 minutes ago, tomav84 said:

so a football gives their reasons for doing a gesture, indicates it has nothing to do with any organisation, and instead than accepting that reason, you decide to create an association that the individuals themselves have repeatedly said doesn't exist?

Sorry, I’m not trying to argue, I just don’t understand what you mean. I understand the reason the players are doing it isn’t because of BLM, but it’s symbolism is already so tied up in it. It’s not me making the association, it was already there.

[Zatman]

35 minutes ago, 7392craig said:

So it’s support the knee or you’re a racist? Genuine question.

No but booing the knee means your a racist. 

Accusing the knee of beng marxist propaganda then you are a racist idiot 

I personally dont like poppy fascism but if its on at Villa Park i dont boo. I just ignore it maybe go the toilet or bar

 

Edited July 14, 2021 by Zatman

[7392craig]

21 minutes ago, tomav84 said:

if you oppose, not just be indifferent to, but actually OPPOSE any form of anti racism gesture (whether you do it silently or vocally) you are a racist, IMO

That would entirely be dependant on the gesture and the circumstances, each on its own basis. On the knee, I don’t oppose its gesture, I genuinely hate the idea of racism itself, it makes little sense.

[blandy]

3 minutes ago, 7392craig said:

I understand the reason the players are doing it isn’t because of BLM, but it’s symbolism is already so tied up in it. It’s not me making the association, it was already there.

That's fair, I guess. The symbolism was there with the USA MLK and Colin Kapaernick gestures and so on. Those got hijacked, to an extent by some people which presented to some an association with the defund the police type stuff.

But the thing is MLK wasn't about left wing or marxist or any other wing stuff - it was just racial equality, so it's a fine thing to use in this country too. The other point is that whatever gesture/symbol the footballers used would have been criticised in some way as being too this or too that - too Black power-y, too antagonistic, too confusing, too divisive...whatever.

"We want racial equality for all, and this is our way of saying that" - I mean it's very difficult to confuse that, or to misunderstand that, or to attribute what they're doing and saying as "you're not really doing that, you're really saying something else". Just listen to what they say. It's  a crystal clear, unambiguous demand and request for people to be treated fairly and no racism. Who could argue with that, really? Who would not support that?

[7392craig]

8 minutes ago, Zatman said:

No but booing the knee means your a racist. 

Accusing the knee of beng marxist propaganda then you are a racist idiot 

I personally dont like poppy fascism but if its on at Villa Park i dont boo. I just ignore it maybe go the toilet or bar

 

I agree. Whilst I’m against the BLM movement itself, I see no reason why taking the knee has to be booed at stadiums. My original question was, that if you don’t support it, are you a racist? I don’t mean oppose it. Some footballers have spoken about it, but as it is used across the board by many people other than footballers, what is taking the knee representative of exactly now? Racism? Institutional racism? Systematic racism? Online racism? Is it racism towards black people in specific? It has had an effect on a lot of people in different ways and not everybody is going to support it, that does not mean that every person who does so is a racist.

[tomav84]

14 minutes ago, 7392craig said:

Sorry, I’m not trying to argue, I just don’t understand what you mean. I understand the reason the players are doing it isn’t because of BLM, but it’s symbolism is already so tied up in it. It’s not me making the association, it was already there.

i think this is where we will probably disagree. i, and many others, see no symbolism/association with taking the knee & BLM.

it's not a gesture that's owned by BLM. it was not started by BLM. it's not a gesture that appears on any of their logos or promotional material. a few people took the knee at a BLM protest and a people have therefore used that as an excuse to protest it.

[7392craig]

6 minutes ago, blandy said:

That's fair, I guess. The symbolism was there with the USA MLK and Colin Kapaernick gestures and so on. Those got hijacked, to an extent by some people which presented to some an association with the defund the police type stuff.

But the thing is MLK wasn't about left wing or marxist or any other wing stuff - it was just racial equality, so it's a fine thing to use in this country too. The other point is that whatever gesture/symbol the footballers used would have been criticised in some way as being too this or too that - too Black power-y, too antagonistic, too confusing, too divisive...whatever.

"We want racial equality for all, and this is our way of saying that" - I mean it's very difficult to confuse that, or to misunderstand that, or to attribute what they're doing and saying as "you're not really doing that, you're really saying something else". Just listen to what they say. It's  a crystal clear, unambiguous demand and request for people to be treated fairly and no racism. Who could argue with that, really? Who would not support that?

I’m 100% on board with you. It’s not just the knee being hijacked though, it’s the unambiguous use of it. The England teams message for their use of the knee was clear, and fully understandable. But, it’s use by so many worldwide, for various different opinions on racial inequality has made it difficult to follow exactly what it is that it opposes. People may not support the knee, but it may not have anything to do with the England teams use of it.

[HanoiVillan]

7 minutes ago, blandy said:

But the thing is MLK wasn't about left wing or marxist or any other wing stuff - it was just racial equality, so it's a fine thing to use in this country too. The other point is that whatever gesture/symbol the footballers used would have been criticised in some way as being too this or too that - too Black power-y, too antagonistic, too confusing, too divisive...whatever.

(Quiet voice, but) I think we can 'protest too much' on this stuff. Martin Luther King was not 'just' about racial equality; the final few years of his life were dedicated to the Poor People's Campaign, which called for the poor of all races to come together to demand economic justice; this was an explicitly left-wing economic program. It is true though that he has been flattened by history into a secular saint who was only interested in civil rights and who no person can disagree with legitimately.

[bobzy]

8 minutes ago, 7392craig said:

I agree. Whilst I’m against the BLM movement itself, I see no reason why taking the knee has to be booed at stadiums. My original question was, that if you don’t support it, are you a racist? I don’t mean oppose it. Some footballers have spoken about it, but as it is used across the board by many people other than footballers, what is taking the knee representative of exactly now? Racism? Institutional racism? Systematic racism? Online racism? Is it racism towards black people in specific? It has had an effect on a lot of people in different ways and not everybody is going to support it, that does not mean that every person who does so is a racist.

Care to explain why?

I find it hard to understand why so many people are against a movement which is about equality, so I'm always keen to learn.

[7392craig]

1 minute ago, bobzy said:

Care to explain why?

I find it hard to understand why so many people are against a movement which is about equality, so I'm always keen to learn.

A group can claim to be about equality whilst their opinion/means of achieving so can be incorrect. To keep it short, I believe racial equality is fundamental to a flourishing society, without it all we do is minimise the pool of potential, as talent and iq are limited as in any society. I don’t believe that blm’s views towards equity or how it is to be achieved, nor their stance on modern racism is anything more than damaging towards this, IMO. The BLM organisation has helped raise some important issues, which can only be a good thing. But it seems clear to me that it’s not them that have the answers.

[blandy]

16 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

(Quiet voice, but) I think we can 'protest too much' on this stuff. Martin Luther King was not 'just' about racial equality; the final few years of his life were dedicated to the Poor People's Campaign, which called for the poor of all races to come together to demand economic justice; this was an explicitly left-wing economic program. It is true though that he has been flattened by history into a secular saint who was only interested in civil rights and who no person can disagree with legitimately.

Yeah. After I wrote it I thought about going back and clarifying I was talking about the kneeling (at police violence )specifically.

[Rolta]

9 minutes ago, 7392craig said:

A group can claim to be about equality whilst their opinion/means of achieving so can be incorrect. To keep it short, I believe racial equality is fundamental to a flourishing society, without it all we do is minimise the pool of potential, as talent and iq are limited as in any society. I don’t believe that blm’s views towards equity or how it is to be achieved, nor their stance on modern racism is anything more than damaging towards this, IMO. The BLM organisation has helped raise some important issues, which can only be a good thing. But it seems clear to me that it’s not them that have the answers.

Maybe you could be specific. I'm interested in the answer too, but what you've put here is a little vague.

EDIT: I'm not sure I'll get this in quick enough, but you seem to also combine Black Lives Matter (tm) and 'black lives matter'. As I said before on a previous page, I wish I as some random chump could make a website called Brexit.com championing collective ownership and so on. Because that's the logic being used here.

Edited July 14, 2021 by Rolta