Racism in Football

[QldVilla]

5 minutes ago, MotoMkali said:

This isn't a case where neutrality is acceptable. If you aren't for equality then you are part of the problem. It doesn't matter if you only think speaking to authorities who perpetuate violence is wrong or whether you think black people are inferior. At that point everything is equal. You either get on board and learn or you are part of the problem.

It isn't on the black players to teach a man basic human decency. It is on the man to learn it. This isn't a new thing either where he could be excused due to a transitional period. No this is a fight that has been going on for hundreds of years. 1974 is when the first equality act was, 1833 is when they abolished slavery. If he hasn't learnt in that time that all people are equal then he can get ****. There is no Room for Racism, support of Racism or implicit acceptance of Racism on this planet and certainly not in football. 

Your calling a person a member of the KKK, not because he is a racist, although that is what your inferring, but because he doesn't approve of the knee and its association with BLM.

You can go on with your diatribe, but saying there is only one what to look at a complex issue, isn't going to engender change in peoples opinions. This is why people don't like BLM, because if you don't agree, your called a racist, that is more reflective of not wanting to discuss the real issues.

You just did it yourself, you have no proof, other than the guy saying he doesn't like the knee for virtue signaling, he didn't say he didn't agree with Mings words and stance.

I saw (3) different articles this morning stating that Police have identified just under 200 comments being of 'racial' in nature targeted at the players on social media. A majority they believe came from overseas on dodgy accounts. Are they all racist? How many of those people aren't racist in nature but maybe suffering from mental health issues, are young children and don't understand the meaning and the effect these words have etc etc?  

Don't get me wrong there are racists out there but they generally are the ones who portray themselves as not being racist. 

On your standards the current American President would be a racist as he eulogized at the funeral of a former KKK member, but the President isn't being held to the same standards you are holding this guy to, how do I know this, because BLM aren't marching through the streets, its hypocrisy at its best. Hence why this guy has an issue with the knee.

Racism is a serious and complex issue, I couldn't comprehend what it would be like growing up as Mings or other and the racism they have had to deal with. But you can either be a child or act as a grown up.

[Vancvillan]

1 hour ago, QldVilla said:

If you want change you need to bring everyone along with you

Pull up a chair and I'll tell you a tale about a thing called Brexit.

[QldVilla]

3 minutes ago, Vancvillan said:

Pull up a chair and I'll tell you a tale about a thing called Brexit.

lol no thanks, the politicians created that issue, their problem will always be they don't like to explain themselves except when its an election year, then they still speak a lot of crap.

 

[ciggiesnbeer]

I live in the USA. I am not sure what the perceived problem with being associated with Black Lives Matter actually is? I can give you my observations.

Black Lives Matter enjoys majority support here (in California) and is completely mainstream. I live in a luxury golf community, they have BLM in ten foot high letters in the tennis courts as you pull into the parking lot of the clubhouse. The cheapest home here is $1.6M , its hardly a hotbed of marxists.  I dont know of anyone in this community who doesn't support Black Lives Matter (including the resident Republicans who are of the "no taxes thanks" variety rather than the bigoted fool Trumper kind). I would say maybe 20% of the shops I visit in the area have BLM posters in the windows, its a common t shirt to see on people of all skin colours I am happy to say.

Don't let anyone fool you into thinking Black Lives Matter is reviled or viewed as some kind of weird marxist political extremist group over here. It isnt. It is seen for exactly what it is, a response to hundred of years of racial injustice and in particular the long track record of American police murdering people of colour. That is the agenda. Stop people getting murdered and abused just because they are black. If you are on board with that, people shouldn't be murdered or abused because they are black, then you will have no problem with BLM.

Anyway if that helps some info.

 

 

 

[blandy]

8 hours ago, Panto_Villan said:

So, @blandy, I was curious about why you think this. It's certainly working in terms of raising the profile of the issue, but that doesn't necessarily equate to footballers recieving less racist abuse - an issue taking on a higher profile can sometimes just make the entire debate far more bitter (e.g. Brexit, Scottish independence, etc). 

Have you seen any evidence that the amount of hate is being reduced or is it enough in your eyes that the issue is getting more attention?

It’s definitely had an effect so far, IMO. I don’t think anyone could honestly disagree that, for example, more back people are featuring on our TV screens or that’s more people are aware that things need to keep changing. Companies have updated diversity and inclusion policies and rules. Supporters are (like us) talking about the issue and that spreads understanding. Until a problem is understood it can’t be sorted out.

To be clear I’m not saying the footballers like Tyrone have fixed or solved anything, or got rid of racism, I’m saying their TTK and the associated letters, media interviews, profile pieces and so on have contributed to highlighting inequality and the need for action and that as a consequence actions have started to be taken.

Tyrone calling out government ministers for hypocrisy is spot on. I bet if you asked her again is it “gesture politics” she’d not say so, and that is a tiny win in itself.

Lastly the whole England squad and staff have been inspirational this past month or so, and loads of kids have seen them and heard them and adored them and they will have their new heroes, and each and every one of their heroes is saying and demonstrating “be equal, be kind, don’t be racist”. I’m sure that it’s working.

[sparrow1988]

3 hours ago, QldVilla said:

That's going a bit far Moto.

What Mings and co are doing is positive, but there are still a lot of people who link the knee to the incident that happened in the US and BLM.

If you want change you need to bring everyone along with you and the players need to be clear in their messaging to change the perceptions of those people.

They and Southgate literally did this and people still booed. I think it was after the first friendly. They were asked by reporters why they are kneeling and the explicitly stated it is against racism and to promote equality for all. I don't know how much clearer people want them to be.

And of course taking the knee is linked to BLM but that shouldn't be a problem. As the poster above explains BLM is not a marxist plot to usurp the current world order. It is only linked to such because asshole politicians and their associates were afraid it would expose their nationalistic/xenophobic/racist politics that they made up some shit to try and discredit it. These lines are peddled out by the likes of Farage, Trump, Tucker Carlson and their ilk. That should be enough to accept these theories for what they are - nonsense.

Futhermore, the use of the word "submission" by the guy is very dodgy when talking about what a black man should do for having the audacity to challenge authority.

Edited July 14, 2021 by sparrow1988

[villa4europe]

3 hours ago, QldVilla said:

That's going a bit far Moto.

What Mings and co are doing is positive, but there are still a lot of people who link the knee to the incident that happened in the US and BLM.

If you want change you need to bring everyone along with you and the players need to be clear in their messaging to change the perceptions of those people.

that was discussed at length before the tournament

the players cannot be clearer in their message, it was clarified about 3 times already by the FA and Southgate 

even after all of this there will still be morons claiming mings is taking the knee because he wants to defund the police...its not the players fault that the moron is a **** moron

[villa4europe]

1 minute ago, sparrow1988 said:

They and Southgate literally did this and people still booed. I think it was after the first friendly. They were asked by reporters why they are kneeling and the explicitly stated it is against racism and to promote equality for all. I don't know how much clearer people want them to be.

And of course taking the knee is linked to BLM but that shouldn't be a problem. As the poster above explains BLM is not a marxist plot to usurp the current world order. It is only linked to such because asshole politicians and their associates were afraid it would expose their nationalistic/xenophobic/racist politics that they made up some shit to try and discredit it. These lines are peddled out by the likes of Farage, Trump, Tucker Carlson and their ilk. That should be enough to accept these theories for what they are - nonsense.

its spot on

and its spot on because its the truth! its easy to see it for it actually is...if you want to...

[desensitized43]

3 minutes ago, villa4europe said:

that was discussed at length before the tournament

the players cannot be clearer in their message, it was clarified about 3 times already by the FA and Southgate 

even after all of this there will still be morons claiming mings is taking the knee because he wants to defund the police...its not the players fault that the moron is a **** moron

Yep. They've come out and said it time and again that it's about equality and not being sent vile racist abuse online.

If at this point you're still calling them marxists or communists then I'd say you're just using it as cover because you don't really think people of colour deserve respect and equality.

There's a word for that.

[sheepyvillian]

26 minutes ago, desensitized43 said:

Yep. They've come out and said it time and again that it's about equality and not being sent vile racist abuse online.

If at this point you're still calling them marxists or communists then I'd say you're just using it as cover because you don't really think people of colour deserve respect and equality.

There's a word for that.

I said it along time a go that dissenters to taking the knee were just using, BLM and Marxism as a pretext. 

Priti Patel should hang her head in shame.

[HalfTimePost]

1 hour ago, ciggiesnbeer said:

I live in the USA. I am not sure what the perceived problem with being associated with Black Lives Matter actually is? I can give you my observations.

Black Lives Matter enjoys majority support here (in California) and is completely mainstream. I live in a luxury golf community, they have BLM in ten foot high letters in the tennis courts as you pull into the parking lot of the clubhouse. The cheapest home here is $1.6M , its hardly a hotbed of marxists.  I dont know of anyone in this community who doesn't support Black Lives Matter (including the resident Republicans who are of the "no taxes thanks" variety rather than the bigoted fool Trumper kind). I would say maybe 20% of the shops I visit in the area have BLM posters in the windows, its a common t shirt to see on people of all skin colours I am happy to say.

Don't let anyone fool you into thinking Black Lives Matter is reviled or viewed as some kind of weird marxist political extremist group over here. It isnt. It is seen for exactly what it is, a response to hundred of years of racial injustice and in particular the long track record of American police murdering people of colour. That is the agenda. Stop people getting murdered and abused just because they are black. If you are on board with that, people shouldn't be murdered or abused because they are black, then you will have no problem with BLM.

Anyway if that helps some info.

 

 

 

In the UK, the right wingers have done the same thing with BLM as Trump did with Antifa.

A lot of fear mongering and talking about them as an 'organisation' that wants to destroy capitalism and a lot of 'just look at their website!' (The website is set up by the 'founders' I.e. the kids who first started chanting BLM)

Effectively, it comes down to the 'Defund the police' bit that started gaining traction during the protests LY. The differences between how our police forces are funded are completely lost on the majority of people here and the belief was that BLM 'The organisation' is going to destroy our way of life and make us communist because they don't understand that was an American pledge because of how City/State police funding works, and have attributed it to the UK too and ran with it.

We have no form of debate in this country, so instead of point out and argue the idiocies in this belief, it has now become commonplace (in the world of Twitter) to say 'i don't mind taking the knee but I don't agree with BLM the organisation' because people believe it is a communist organisation and don't understand what they are saying or talking about

Edited July 14, 2021 by HalfTimePost

[QldVilla]

1 hour ago, sparrow1988 said:

They and Southgate literally did this and people still booed. I think it was after the first friendly. They were asked by reporters why they are kneeling and the explicitly stated it is against racism and to promote equality for all. I don't know how much clearer people want them to be.

And of course taking the knee is linked to BLM but that shouldn't be a problem. As the poster above explains BLM is not a marxist plot to usurp the current world order. It is only linked to such because asshole politicians and their associates were afraid it would expose their nationalistic/xenophobic/racist politics that they made up some shit to try and discredit it. These lines are peddled out by the likes of Farage, Trump, Tucker Carlson and their ilk. That should be enough to accept these theories for what they are - nonsense.

Futhermore, the use of the word "submission" by the guy is very dodgy when talking about what a black man should do for having the audacity to challenge authority.

They may of said that, but the reality is this didn’t start 2 years ago, it started in reaction to the riots in the US.

A lot of people around the world have an issue with the politics of BLM, you can quote the right wing media etc, but normal people actually research something they don’t know or understand and you don’t need to go far past their landing page to know it isn’t with the expectations of mainstream society.

You can use the word submission to spin a narrative, but he said nothing racist.

Do I agree with him, no. But I’m not going to stand by and watch a nobody label someone a racist because of a post on social media. It’s cowardly just like those who make racist statements about these players.

You need to think about what type of community you want, if you want to call out racists great, but that also comes with calling out those who mislabel individuals just because you don’t like what they said.

 

PS Just because Southgate came out and said it’s not to do with BLM, the normal person don’t swallow everything they are told, they see the evidence. They need to keep educating the public on why they are making this stance and work hard to win those over to show it’s important to the players, that’s how you change the people minds that its a genuine platform.

Edited July 14, 2021 by QldVilla

[Rolta]

26 minutes ago, QldVilla said:

They may of said that, but the reality is this didn’t start 2 years ago, it started in reaction to the riots in the US.

A lot of people around the world have an issue with the politics of BLM, you can quote the right wing media etc, but normal people actually research something they don’t know or understand and you don’t need to go far past their landing page to know it isn’t with the expectations of mainstream society.

You can use the word submission to spin a narrative, but he said nothing racist.

Do I agree with him, no. But I’m not going to stand by and watch a nobody label someone a racist because of a post on social media. It’s cowardly just like those who make racist statements about these players.

You need to think about what type of community you want, if you want to call out racists great, but that also comes with calling out those who mislabel individuals just because you don’t like what they said.

 

PS Just because Southgate came out and said it’s not to do with BLM, the normal person don’t swallow everything they are told, they see the evidence. They need to keep educating the public on why they are making this stance and work hard to win those over to show it’s important to the players, that’s how you change the people minds that its a genuine platform.

I'm going to make a website called Brexit that calls for collective ownership and I hope to inspire the same logic as is used against BLM. 

Because it's the same thing. Sure some people made a website, and I really hope those so triggered by the phrase 'defund the police' have listened to the actual argument they're making. But the masses who protested against police killings of black people in the US were not paid up members of a website—they were obviously and clearly doing so to protest...police killings of black people. The phrase Black Lives Matter is not copyrighted by any organisation, and it's a pretty obvious thing to say in light of the killings, and in the face of racist sentiment in general. Black lives matter. 

And Colin Kaepernick taking the knee is nothing to do with the website either.

People latching on to the 'BLM are a Marxist organisation' argument come across to me, if I'm honest, either really stupid or willfully disingenuous. I'm sure it's a mix of the two—arseholes willing on the naive—and in fairness I imagine there are some decent people who have fallen for the narrative a little naively. But it is **** stupid.

I could look at Leave.eu and say, 'Look at these odious windup-merchants, I don't agree with the politics of Brexit.' But it is a non sequitur. The same logic is used here, but the only difference is literally a name. 

(Brexit references used only as an easy, ironic and obvious example)

Edited July 14, 2021 by Rolta

[Ingram85]

If they aren’t racist then they are brain dead stupid morons who need to stop sticking their oar in about things they don’t understand and stop getting involved whining about players taking the knee. It’s past educating these thicko’s. Either get on board or shut the **** up.

[a m ole]

29 minutes ago, QldVilla said:

PS Just because Southgate came out and said it’s not to do with BLM, the normal person don’t swallow everything they are told, they see the evidence. They need to keep educating the public on why they are making this stance and work hard to win those over to show it’s important to the players, that’s how you change the people minds that its a genuine platform

Yeah, definitely their fault and not the stubborn and ignorant. Jesus **** Christ.

[Rolta]

32 minutes ago, QldVilla said:

 Just because Southgate came out and said it’s not to do with BLM, the normal person don’t swallow everything they are told, they see the evidence. They need to keep educating the public on why they are making this stance and work hard to win those over to show it’s important to the players, that’s how you change the people minds that its a genuine platform.

These people seem willfully keen to swallow everything they're told as long as it undermines an anti racist message. 

I hope they apply as much critical thinking to all the other big issues, including the ones they're not spoon fed. 

[blandy]

12 hours ago, AvonVillain said:

The footballers efforts are clearly not having the desired effect, ie; not working, as evidenced constantly on social media and in society as a whole. Is this seriously in dispute? So the method and effectiveness of the message needs to be questioned, and we need to figure why this is and what can be done.

I don't see it like that. The undeniable fact that Tyrone's and the England footballers and Premier League footballers taking the knee hasn't eradicated all racism, doesn't mean that it is not working. As a way to bring attention to the need to eradicate racism, it's definitely worked, IMO. Since they've been doing it there's been far more focus on the subject in the UK, although it was already rising following events in Big America.

Let's be honest, as admirable as they are, the footballers, even the most eloquent and thoughtful ones, like Tyrone are not going to solve and eliminate a centuries long embedded blight. But them using their profiles, making the symbolic gesture that says "we stand against racism, much more needs to be done" does absolutely highlight to football fans and the wider nation (and world, given the popularity of the Premier League) that stuff has to happen. And little by little stuff is happening. Sadly, some of that stuff is push back in the form of abuse and booing. Some of the push back is genuinely meant without malice - e.g. "it's more an issue of poverty than the whole country being systemically racist, poverty is the real problem we should fix here", some of the pushback is tone deaf "you're marxists trying to defund the police". But hugely the main response has been "yes, the footballers are right, the media like the Sun and the Mail, the Politicians, the nobbers on Twittergram, the business world need to change". And again, while they're nowhere near changed enough, the change has started a little bit, and that's why I think the footballers are having an effect, and good on them for what they've done and are doing.. 

[blandy]

1 hour ago, QldVilla said:

Just because Southgate came out and said it’s not to do with BLM, the normal person don’t swallow everything they are told, they see the evidence. They need to keep educating the public on why they are making this stance and work hard to win those over to show it’s important to the players, that’s how you change the people minds that its a genuine platform.

I have a question and a comment.

First the comment - I agree they should "keep educating the public on why they are making this stance and work hard to win those over to show it’s important to the players, that’s how you change the people minds that its a genuine platform.".

Now the question - what is "the evidence" that the normal person sees, which counters Gareth Southgate's and the players assertions that it's not to do with the BLM organisation? I ask because I'm "normal" (ish), and I can't see any evidence.

[tomav84]

15 minutes ago, blandy said:

I have a question and a comment.

First the comment - I agree they should "keep educating the public on why they are making this stance and work hard to win those over to show it’s important to the players, that’s how you change the people minds that its a genuine platform.".

Now the question - what is "the evidence" that the normal person sees, which counters Gareth Southgate's and the players assertions that it's not to do with the BLM organisation? I ask because I'm "normal" (ish), and I can't see any evidence.

you can't see any evidence because there is none. they (racists) are LOOKING for a reason to dislike the knee. i guarantee if they'd used an alternative gesture, they'd have found a reason to boo that too.

most people consider "the evidence" as being a player/manager/coach etc giving us THEIR reasons for doing this gesture and not looking for reasons to oppose it. a minority are ignoring the evidence and creating a false narrative that gives them something to hide behind

[7392craig]

7 minutes ago, tomav84 said:

you can't see any evidence because there is none. they (racists) are LOOKING for a reason to dislike the knee. i guarantee if they'd used an alternative gesture, they'd have found a reason to boo that too.

most people consider "the evidence" as being a player/manager/coach etc giving us THEIR reasons for doing this gesture and not looking for reasons to oppose it. a minority are ignoring the evidence and creating a false narrative that gives them something to hide behind

So it’s support the knee or you’re a racist? Genuine question.