Dean Smith

[OxfordVillan]

Comments seem to be either one end of the pendulum or the other regarding the manager, there doesn’t seem to be any interest in the middle ground, for a bit of balance. I think this subject needs to be viewed from a few different angles to build the picture. The climb we’ve had since Dean Smith took charge has been impressive, from where we were in October 2018 to now must surely be beyond most reasonable expectations?! Not outstanding, not a miracle, but for sure it should be viewed as very solid progression. The first half of this season can be said to have been superb, up until the turn of the year the team were still well in the mix for the European places and were talked about as one of the most exciting teams to watch. The wheels, whilst not coming off, have certainly become wobbly since January, since the COVID outbreak. Only time will tell what impact the outbreak had on the team, fwiw I think the teams decline since then can be more attributed to Grealish carrying what is obviously the shin splint injury, before finally having to stop playing completely. But even with that we can say we’ve been safe all season and never once looked like flirting with the relegation scrap, which I think is what most of us had targeted when the season started. Our start obviously raised expectations, and so how we’re finishing the season is a comedown for many of us and makes what is a very decent season begin to feel like a bit of a failure. 

For me there is no doubt that the Manager goes into next season having been backed once more in the summer transfer market, his year on year progress warrants that. What I would say, though, is that he’ll have to keep progressing. And for me I think the owners would expect progress to be a very similar start to the 21/22 season as we’ve had this season, where we are up and running amongst the top 7 or 8 teams.....and stay there. I would have concerns for the manager if we followed up a flat end to this season with a couple of so/so months into the start of next season. We must remember that the owners are ambitious and successful men, this is the Premier League, and very few managers get time. Momentum is key, a disappointing end to a season followed by a sticky start has seen the demise of many a manager, it makes people forget all the good that happened previous to a relatively short spell of poor/disappointing results. 
In short, Dean Smith has done very decently. He hasn’t worked miracles and he hasn’t been crap. Wolves performed better over their opening two seasons back in the Premier League, and Leeds now look like they could out perform us over this season. This should show many people that what we’ve achieved really isn’t the stuff of miracles. We can’t be complacent, or blind to other clubs achieving more. Dean Smith has earned the right go into next season (unless we fall off a cliff and lose 6 or 7 of our last 8 games). 
 

[AvfcRigo82]

34 minutes ago, vreitti said:

Tonight however, I thought we were quite good in spells, and fully matched them. 

 

16 minutes ago, Tomaszk said:

Shit show?

We lost in the last second to the Champions?

Sorry*, I was not talking about the Liverpool game but more of the last 10 or so games.

Shit show probably a bit extreme but our form of late has been unacceptable and add to that the recent results against the bottom six have been poor.

As @foreveryoung states, we could have recently beat Spurs and even got something today against Liverpool too but failed to capitalise on their poor performances in games we could have taken the 3pts from both.

[foreveryoung]

I think coincidence. No other team in the whole of the football leagues has suffered a down turn in form due to Covid, not that I know of anyway We started poor form a couple of weeks before Grealish got injured, which says to me he was playing with the injury for a while, as I can see him playing until it got too bad to play, which is probably why it's taking so long to return to fitness. We are as good as a 1 man team and it's being proved, every bit of creativeness was through Grealish and we have hardly any idea without him.

[QldVilla]

People seem to forget that there is a psychological component to the game. To make the top 4, you have to be very good every week over 38 games. We are competing against some teams with better players and deeper squads and more experience playing at this level.

We have shown what we are capable of, which was a very high level, but have been unable to replicate that high level of play over the past 10 games or so. I thought we were a 10 point better team than our position last season, and believe the same can be said of where we finish this season.

A lot on here before the COVID outbreak believed Europe was a possibility and I remember getting a little flak from some because I thought we’d finish somewhere between 8-10th with that start. It’s the reality of football, some wanted to believe we were better than we are. We are a very good team that can go toe to toe with any football club in the division, but we aren’t ready yet to be consistent over a full season.

The team needs to evolve again this summer and will be interesting to see whether some players are moved on for an upgrade and whether those key players we need to evolve are brought in.

 

[HeyAnty]

My issue with Smith is that he is so predictable.  Never tries or sets up any different week in week out.  

That will only get you so far.  10th is his limits unless he comes up with new ideas. I actually don’t think he is good enough to change things inorde to push us among the elite. 

[foreveryoung]

6 minutes ago, QldVilla said:

People seem to forget that there is a psychological component to the game. To make the top 4, you have to be very good every week over 38 games. We are competing against some teams with better players and deeper squads and more experience playing at this level.

We have shown what we are capable of, which was a very high level, but have been unable to replicate that high level of play over the past 10 games or so. I thought we were a 10 point better team than our position last season, and believe the same can be said of where we finish this season.

A lot on here before the COVID outbreak believed Europe was a possibility and I remember getting a little flak from some because I thought we’d finish somewhere between 8-10th with that start. It’s the reality of football, some wanted to believe we were better than we are. We are a very good team that can go toe to toe with any football club in the division, but we aren’t ready yet to be consistent over a full season.

The team needs to evolve again this summer and will be interesting to see whether some players are moved on for an upgrade and whether those key players we need to evolve are brought in.

 

But we are not really being outfought chap, we're just playing poorly, with some games awful to watch. If we were playing pur best and lost it wouldn't be so bad, but we rarely say we got beat by the better team.

[vreitti]

3 minutes ago, AvfcRigo82 said:

 

Sorry*, I was not talking about the Liverpool game but more of the last 10 or so games.

Shit show probably a bit extreme but our form of late has been unacceptable and add to that the recent results against the bottom six have been poor.

As @foreveryoung states, we could have recently beat Spurs and even got something today against Liverpool too but failed to capitalise on their poor performances in games we could have taken the 3pts from both.

Yes we could've gotten something from both games, but as you yourself said, our form has also been terrible. So realistically, we couldn't have expected much better? Had we won, or even drawn, we'd have greatly exceeded expectations, right? My point simply being, we've done okay, we didn't get hammered, and almost got the draw against pool. And we're still in a good position, for a strong, top10 finish. 

[barry'sboots]

34 minutes ago, vreitti said:

Can't argue with much of that. Wouldn't say either team was shite though. For me it was a rather good football match, which we unfairly lost.

Keep thinking what more could Smith have done. Can't think of anything really. I suspect we were the best we could be, today. 

Did you not watch the Fulham game last week.  Did you not see how much better we looked in the last half hour where we scored three goals?  We tried something different and it worked.

We went back to the same old, same old today - El Ghazi and Barkley subbed into the 4-3-3 that Dean loves so much - and it, not unsurprisingly, did not work!

As I said earlier, I am not saying that KD up top with Ollie would work every week, BUT I am damn sure that it has more chance of working than El Ghazi and Barkley coming on having watched the last 10 games!  Maybe it's just me (and some others on here), but I find it really difficult to understand how people cannot see that??

Nick76 tells me that Smith just doesn't rate him, which is probably evident, but I would have three responses to that:

• If he rates him that little why spend January's money on Sanson instead of bringing in a "9" - King was available.  Maybe not the best but a proven PL "9".  What would Smith do if Ollie was out injured??
• I could live with that argument if we were not so sterile in the 4-3-3 Smith keeps playing without Jack.
• Did Smith not watch last weekend?

[nick76]

30 minutes ago, HeyAnty said:

My issue with Smith is that he is so predictable.  Never tries or sets up any different week in week out.  

That will only get you so far.  10th is his limits unless he comes up with new ideas. I actually don’t think he is good enough to change things inorde to push us among the elite. 

I’m not convinced that is 100% true and that’s because I don’t believe we have the evidence to support it either way.

We don’t know how he feels about two up top which is the argument recently about playing KD and Ollie but given KD’s lack of game time especially today it seems it’s more about how Smith feels about KD than playing two up top.  Therefore we’ve not really had two strikers under Smiths reign that he’s been comfortable to play together...Tammy, Wes, Samatta then Ollie....but not two have been here, fit at the same time.

We don’t have proper 442 wingers so it’s hard to play that system and we struggle to have a player that fits top of a midfield diamond,it would have to be Jack but he’s better further forward and a diamond midfield maybe expose too easily down the flanks with our midfielders.

We have tried three at the back and four with Dean if my memory serves me correctly.

Hes rotated the small squad.  We’ve played defensive formations like we did against Leeds recently and won, and we’ve been expansive when we were playing earlier in the season.

So given the tools so far, I’m not sure what else there is.  Is he stubborn? Of course.  Is that good? Yes and No.  Good that has a belief and is driving that through the club, bad that it’s hard to move when we are struggling but this forum would be in meltdown if he kept changing things week in, week out.

I think he needs more tools (players) and then you might have an argument if he does nothing but it’s hard when you currently only have half a toolbox but need need a bit more time to buy the other tools.

Edited April 10, 2021 by nick76

[vreitti]

10 minutes ago, HeyAnty said:

My issue with Smith is that he is so predictable.  Never tries or sets up any different week in week out.  

That will only get you so far.  10th is his limits unless he comes up with new ideas. I actually don’t think he is good enough to change things inorde to push us among the elite. 

Couldn't the same be said of Klopp, Ole and Pep too? What's the actual difference? Could it not be their far superior squads? 

Tbh I have no idea what Smiths ceiling is going to be, just think it's a little too soon to be judging, considering what he's got at his disposal, compared to the others. We're doing well, and if we finish in the top10, we'll have greatly overachieved, imho. 

[thabucks]

There is no denying we have made great strides since Smith took over without any doubts. Can we continue on an upward trajectory with Smith is the question Lange & Purslow need to ask themselves- if they feel this summer a change is required (that’s not Gerrard) then I would have to trust them. 
They may or may feel he has reached his ceiling and if that is the case then sentimentality plays no part with hundreds of millions at stake. They obviously work extremely closely day to day with Smith and will know his limitations better than any of us. Palace were ridiculed for dumping De Boer by the media etc but he was a train wreck from day one and they instantly realised by day two they had made a huge mistake and he had to go regardless ASAP... Flip-side. Change for change sake though is pointless and v.risky... 

With Smith openly admitting he is still learning his trade, it will be interesting to see how NSWE ambitions develop as they inevitably outgrow Smith’s skills and capabilities to step up and compete with the elite which is their stated goal. The calibre of his replacement whenever that day comes, does excite me I won’t lie. However, whatever doubts I have long term about his m fully behind Smith and cannot fault the job he has done in restoring the pride in being a Villa fan. Whatever happens he will no doubt go down as a legend, and I just love the fact that Smith, Shakespeare & Jack are all One of Us ! It is a very special moment in our history, not to be thrown away or forgotten needlessly... I think I’m saying unless it’s Rangnick (dream) I’m calling BS in any talk of Smith leaving until mid 2022 minimum - but do trust them to be know when the times right if the day comes earlier. 

 

[OxfordVillan]

20 minutes ago, HeyAnty said:

My issue with Smith is that he is so predictable.  Never tries or sets up any different week in week out.  

That will only get you so far.  10th is his limits unless he comes up with new ideas. I actually don’t think he is good enough to change things inorde to push us among the elite. 

What did Klopp do differently with the way Liverpool played last season? Or Pep, the season before? To counter your assertion that Smith is predictable I offer you the last two managers to win the Premier League. They never changed set ups, formation etc. What they had was very good players, in particular Pep has very good players all through his squad. Most of the time it’s less to do with formations and tactics, and more to do with simply having a depth of good players. Klopp barely changed a thing with the Liverpool side over two seasons. If Dean Smith had the luxury to bring on DeBruyne, Ageuro, Fernandinho instead of a Davis, ElGhazi, Ramsey etc then we’d not even be thinking about the tactics etc, we’d simply be talking about superb players winning us games. Of course there have been mistakes at times with game management etc, but I guarantee you fans of all clubs will have gripes about their manager. Good players win games, not formations.

[nick76]

5 minutes ago, barry'sboots said:

Nick76 tells me that Smith just doesn't rate him, which is probably evident, but I would have three responses to that:

• If he rates him that little why spend January's money on Sanson instead of bringing in a "9" - King was available.  Maybe not the best but a proven PL "9".  What would Smith do if Ollie was out injured??
• I could live with that argument if we were not so sterile in the 4-3-3 Smith keeps playing without Jack.
• Did Smith not watch last weekend?

All good points but only Dean and his team know.  All we know is Dean won’t play KD, why is just speculation.  My biggest gripe last summer is why we didn’t bring in another striker as well, at that point we had no idea if Ollie was going to work, Wes was crocked and KD wasn’t favoured, it was a bizarre way to start the season in the striker position.  Smith obviously had great belief in Ollie which was well grounded in reality now in hindsight but still to only have one striker he liked who was fit for the season is bizarre in my opinion and I was fairly vocal about it at the time on here.

Re your first point, we did try and get Mandzukic in January but in the end it didn’t happen.  Maybe they have someone planned for long term purchase in the summer or are waiting to see how Wes returns before deciding so we’re interested in Mandzukic for the short term.  Maybe they were also interested in somebody else but didn’t happen....maybe even Covid stopped it as there were virtually no transfers in January in the PL. (I was never a fan of King even when there were links before about him, I think we’ve been lucky avoiding that).

 

[vreitti]

5 minutes ago, barry'sboots said:

Did you not watch the Fulham game last week.  Did you not see how much better we looked in the last half hour where we scored three goals?  We tried something different and it worked.

We went back to the same old, same old today - El Ghazi and Barkley subbed into the 4-3-3 that Dean loves so much - and it, not unsurprisingly, did not work!

As I said earlier, I am not saying that KD up top with Ollie would work every week, BUT I am damn sure that it has more chance of working than El Ghazi and Barkley coming on having watched the last 10 games!  Maybe it's just me (and some others on here), but I find it really difficult to understand how people cannot see that??

Nick76 tells me that Smith just doesn't rate him, which is probably evident, but I would have three responses to that:

• If he rates him that little why spend January's money on Sanson instead of bringing in a "9" - King was available.  Maybe not the best but a proven PL "9".  What would Smith do if Ollie was out injured??
• I could live with that argument if we were not so sterile in the 4-3-3 Smith keeps playing without Jack.
• Did Smith not watch last weekend?

I did watch last week. Enjoyed it immensely. Actually think the biggest reason for our resurgence against Fulham was Trez coming on. He rightly started today, and came close to scoring, again.

I don't proclaim to know what KD would've added. Your guess is as good as mine. But none of us are head coach of Aston Villa though, that much I know. Smith et.co., felt Barkley was the better option tonight. Was he wrong? Seems so in hindsight. It doesn't mean Keinan would've altered the end result either. Felt he had no choice with ElGhazi though, and tbh I don't think he really wanted to bring on either one. 

[barry'sboots]

10 minutes ago, vreitti said:

Smith et.co., felt Barkley was the better option tonight. Was he wrong? Seems so in hindsight. It doesn't mean Keinan would've altered the end result either. 

I have said that KD might not have altered the result.

Where we seem to disagree is that you think we needed the benefit of hindsight to know that Smith was wrong to think Barkley was the better option.

My argument is that we didn't need to rely on hindsight, we just need to look at the last 10 games to know that Barkley and AEG are not the solution at the minute, whereas last week showed us that KD partnering Ollie can be??

And I, like most, am struggling to understand why Smith can't see this?

Edited April 10, 2021 by barry'sboots

[Sulberto21]

Kabak and Phillips would have been bullied by Davis. Watkins was competing with them physically. Davis is stronger than Watkins so I believe he would have made a difference. Nakamba should have stayed on and Traore taken off. 

Edited April 10, 2021 by Sulberto21

[mykeyb]

3 hours ago, barry'sboots said:

I'm afraid, my friend, that this is where you look silly, because I don't recall ever "stamping and moaning about not getting anywhere"! 

You seem to automatically jump to anyone that criticises Smith is, and always has been, a "Smith hater" and give no consideration at all to the validity of the underlying criticism!  I like Smith - I like him as a person, I like the way he goes out to win, I love that he is one of our own and I believe he has a good relationship with the players.  I have never, yet, called for him to be sacked/replaced and will not, at least at present.  I just want him to evolve and have stated that I hope he can become an elite manager.

However, I have and will continue to be critical of him for his inability to try different things when we are in a terrible run of form!  I've said numerous times that the definition of madness is to keep trying the same thing and expecting a different result.  That is what we seem to be doing.  He did it in the Championship when Jack was injured when he persisted with the same 4-3-3 and we just didn't have the players and we went on a terrible run.  Jack came back and we won 10 in a row.

El Ghazi and Barkley have proven, over the last 10 games or so, that they are not the answer.  KD, supporting Ollie, gets half an hour or so against Fulham and we score three goals.  Doesn't mean it will work every week, I accept that, but it does, in my mind, mean that he should have pushed himself well ahead of Barkley and El Ghazi in the manager's thinking and that a two up top should be an option.

Brilliant post. Spot on.

[vreitti]

5 minutes ago, barry'sboots said:

I have said that KD might not have altered the result.

Where we seem to disagree is that you think we needed the benefit of hindsight to know that Smith was wrong to think Barkley was the better option.

My argument is that we didn't need to rely on hindsight, we just need to look at the last 10 games to know that Barkley and AEG are not the solution at the minute, whereas last week showed us that KD partnering Ollie can be??

And I, like most, am struggling to understand why Smith can't see this?

I'd like to think Smith actually knew too, that bringing on Barkley (or El Ghazi for that matter), wouldn't change anything. Nobody is that blind. Perhaps he was hoping for a miracle?

You raise a good point though, regarding Keinan. I don't have an answer. 

 

[mykeyb]

1 hour ago, OxfordVillan said:

Comments seem to be either one end of the pendulum or the other regarding the manager, there doesn’t seem to be any interest in the middle ground, for a bit of balance. I think this subject needs to be viewed from a few different angles to build the picture. The climb we’ve had since Dean Smith took charge has been impressive, from where we were in October 2018 to now must surely be beyond most reasonable expectations?! Not outstanding, not a miracle, but for sure it should be viewed as very solid progression. The first half of this season can be said to have been superb, up until the turn of the year the team were still well in the mix for the European places and were talked about as one of the most exciting teams to watch. The wheels, whilst not coming off, have certainly become wobbly since January, since the COVID outbreak. Only time will tell what impact the outbreak had on the team, fwiw I think the teams decline since then can be more attributed to Grealish carrying what is obviously the shin splint injury, before finally having to stop playing completely. But even with that we can say we’ve been safe all season and never once looked like flirting with the relegation scrap, which I think is what most of us had targeted when the season started. Our start obviously raised expectations, and so how we’re finishing the season is a comedown for many of us and makes what is a very decent season begin to feel like a bit of a failure. 

For me there is no doubt that the Manager goes into next season having been backed once more in the summer transfer market, his year on year progress warrants that. What I would say, though, is that he’ll have to keep progressing. And for me I think the owners would expect progress to be a very similar start to the 21/22 season as we’ve had this season, where we are up and running amongst the top 7 or 8 teams.....and stay there. I would have concerns for the manager if we followed up a flat end to this season with a couple of so/so months into the start of next season. We must remember that the owners are ambitious and successful men, this is the Premier League, and very few managers get time. Momentum is key, a disappointing end to a season followed by a sticky start has seen the demise of many a manager, it makes people forget all the good that happened previous to a relatively short spell of poor/disappointing results. 
In short, Dean Smith has done very decently. He hasn’t worked miracles and he hasn’t been crap. Wolves performed better over their opening two seasons back in the Premier League, and Leeds now look like they could out perform us over this season. This should show many people that what we’ve achieved really isn’t the stuff of miracles. We can’t be complacent, or blind to other clubs achieving more. Dean Smith has earned the right go into next season (unless we fall off a cliff and lose 6 or 7 of our last 8 games). 
 

I disagree there are a lot of posts backing Dean but also asking questions of his management today. Surely they are in the middle ground.

Edited April 10, 2021 by mykeyb

[Zatman]

Liverpool put on 100 million subs, we had shit