Dean Smith

[mikeyp102]

24 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Watching the way Brentford attack really makes me think this is the way Deano would have wanted us to play.

It's how we started, then the fear and eventually the lack of quality to do it seems to have set in/exposed us.

Very fluid, quick, skillfull and with pace.

I'm seriously impressed with them.

Norwich tried to continue doing that. Look what happened to them. The premier league is such a step up in quality that one slight error and you can concede. 
 

That’s why Smith deserves credit, especially the way we changed post lockdown. Yes it wasn’t always the prettiest, but sometimes you just have to go back to basics and grind out results 

[Keener window-cleaner]

I wonder if we would benefit by adding an experienced name to the management team, someone like Craig Shakespeare with loads of Premier League experience and a proven track record? Perhaps it's best not to disrupt the group as it is, but I feel we lack some PL know how. Terry obviously has it from a players point of view, but is new to the management side of it. ROK seems to be a lovly man and is for sure excellent, but is unproven and unknown. Or perhaps it would undermine DS if we added an experienced name? 

[Zatman]

1 minute ago, Keener window-cleaner said:

I wonder if we would benefit by adding an experienced name to the management team, someone like Craig Shakespeare with loads of Premier League experience and a proven track record? Perhaps it's best not to disrupt the group as it is, but I feel we lack some PL know how. Terry obviously has it from a players point of view, but is new to the management side of it. ROK seems to be a lovly man and is for sure excellent, but is unproven and unknown. Or perhaps it would undermine DS if we added an experienced name? 

pretty sure they will have learned from this experience and will be all the better for it. 

[Adam2003]

Imagine getting your team promoted, securing their Prem status, getting to a cup final and being SO GOOD that you also laid the groundwork for your old team to get promoted the same season.

[TRO]

14 hours ago, Mjvilla said:

And despite all this, so many people want/wanted him gone. He was called an idiot and a fool, amongst many other things. He had so much shit made up about him as a tool to abuse him with. 

He's been a fantastic appointment. I was completely wrong about him. I didn't want him, but I couldn't have thought of anything worse than sacking him at any point since his appointment. I love him!

I'm touched.

Look, He has delivered in both seasons, by the skin of our teeth, but hey .....He has delivered, fair play to him.

Now we need to support him with some quality signings and see how he continues the Journey.

[TRO]

1 hour ago, mikeyp102 said:

Norwich tried to continue doing that. Look what happened to them. The premier league is such a step up in quality that one slight error and you can concede. 
 

That’s why Smith deserves credit, especially the way we changed post lockdown. Yes it wasn’t always the prettiest, but sometimes you just have to go back to basics and grind out results 

The quality of defender in the prem is so much higher than the championship and the net result is goals are harder to come by.....so you can't give them away.

Norwich, blew teams away in the championship, not so easy a league up....and it showed, away at Liverpool and they tried to go toe to toe and nearly pulled it off, against Man cIty it did pay off......over 38 games it don't.

Chris Wilder was more astute and was miserly at the back......all the pundits say the same thing, if you can't defend in the Prem, you will get found out, because your forwards won't bail you out.

[BG_Villa_Fan]

9 hours ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Watching the way Brentford attack really makes me think this is the way Deano would have wanted us to play.

It's how we started, then the fear and eventually the lack of quality to do it seems to have set in/exposed us.

Very fluid, quick, skillfull and with pace.

I'm seriously impressed with them.

I agree, and we played similarly in the championship, but couldn't maintain it in the premier league against better opposition. Players are allowed so much more time on the ball in the championship, defending and pressing is much worse. For all of Brentford's great attacking football their first two goals from last night would have never happened in the premier league. Completely naive from Swansea. 

I loved how Villa tried to play at the start of the season, way more attacking and trying to keep possession, but it all came to an end after the Man U away game. Smith will have to find the balance between that way and the more defensively sound football from after the break in order for the team to progress because sitting back, absorbing pressure and counter attacking clearly isn't his preferred way and isn't exactly fitting for the players we now have. 

[DaveAV1]

52 minutes ago, BG_Villa_Fan said:

I agree, and we played similarly in the championship, but couldn't maintain it in the premier league against better opposition. Players are allowed so much more time on the ball in the championship, defending and pressing is much worse. For all of Brentford's great attacking football their first two goals from last night would have never happened in the premier league. Completely naive from Swansea. 

I loved how Villa tried to play at the start of the season, way more attacking and trying to keep possession, but it all came to an end after the Man U away game. Smith will have to find the balance between that way and the more defensively sound football from after the break in order for the team to progress because sitting back, absorbing pressure and counter attacking clearly isn't his preferred way and isn't exactly fitting for the players we now have. 

I think we’ll se a version of his preferred way, but it will largely be dependent on how much quality we can add over the next few weeks. We didn’t have the quality last season to play the type of game he wants to play. I think last season will have taught him that perhaps that way is a little too gung-ho for the PL unless you’ve got Man City’s squad. Even then an element of pragmatism is needed, a lot of points were lost to naivety. 

[ciggiesnbeer]

8 hours ago, TRO said:

The quality of defender in the prem is so much higher than the championship and the net result is goals are harder to come by.....so you can't give them away.

Norwich, blew teams away in the championship, not so easy a league up....and it showed, away at Liverpool and they tried to go toe to toe and nearly pulled it off, against Man cIty it did pay off......over 38 games it don't.

Chris Wilder was more astute and was miserly at the back......all the pundits say the same thing, if you can't defend in the Prem, you will get found out, because your forwards won't bail you out.

Great point. I would add the work rate and sustained intensity of the average premier league player is a shock as well.  

[TRO]

13 hours ago, ciggiesnbeer said:

Great point. I would add the work rate and sustained intensity of the average premier league player is a shock as well.  

Totally agree

[TRO]

It is interesting to read the stats in the Guardian...

• pre lockdown we had a stat of 5.8 shots on target on average in every game, by opponents
• post Lockdown we had a a stat of 2.6  shots on target on average in every game, by opponents.

That is an incredible turn around.....we were 4th best, behind Liverpool, Man City, and Wolves.

I am hoping Dean has learnt such a lot from Lockdown and judging by these stats, he has......if we can keep that up and invest in the attack, anything is possible.

 

Edited July 30, 2020 by TRO

[A'Villan]

21 hours ago, TRO said:

The quality of defender in the prem is so much higher than the championship and the net result is goals are harder to come by.....so you can't give them away.

Norwich, blew teams away in the championship, not so easy a league up....and it showed, away at Liverpool and they tried to go toe to toe and nearly pulled it off, against Man cIty it did pay off......over 38 games it don't.

Chris Wilder was more astute and was miserly at the back......all the pundits say the same thing, if you can't defend in the Prem, you will get found out, because your forwards won't bail you out.

You might be a fan of this quote, "Offense brings in the crowds, but defense wins you championships."

Goals are no harder to come by between the two divisions, both average between 2.5 and 3 goals scored per game over a season and have done for a long time. I think what exposes a team that had success in the second tier and prevents it from emulating it in the top division, is what you mention, quality of play, but not just defending per se.

Swansea under Brendan Rogers, having never played in the PL before, managed 11th place in the PL and boasted the 10th highest possession retention across all of Europe's top leagues that season. They showed that you could come up and play with the philosophy and methodology used in a lower division, if you adjusted it to meet the standards of play and tactics instilled by opposition in any given fixture. They didn't have a horrible defense, in terms of personnel, Vorm protected by Rangel, Caulker, Williams and Taylor. They had all of zero PL games between them back then, with the back four all having played in the lower leagues and Vorm in the Eredivisie. Far from their greatest asset no matter which way you look at it.

[TRO]

19 minutes ago, A'Villan said:

You might be a fan of this quote, "Offense brings in the crowds, but defense wins you championships."

Goals are no harder to come by between the two divisions, both average between 2.5 and 3 goals scored per game over a season and have done for a long time. I think what exposes a team that had success in the second tier and prevents it from emulating it in the top division, is what you mention, quality of play, but not just defending per se.

Swansea under Brendan Rogers, having never played in the PL before, managed 11th place in the PL and boasted the 10th highest possession retention across all of Europe's top leagues that season. They showed that you could come up and play with the philosophy and methodology used in a lower division, if you adjusted it to meet the standards of play and tactics instilled by opposition in any given fixture. They didn't have a horrible defense, in terms of personnel, Vorm protected by Rangel, Caulker, Williams and Taylor. They had all of zero PL games between them back then, with the back four all having played in the lower leagues and Vorm in the Eredivisie. Far from their greatest asset no matter which way you look at it.

I agree with the quote.

It doesn't surprise me that the stats as a general rule are similar as only 3 teams come up......so in theory 17 teams have commensurate quality in defence and attack, subsequently the ratio is similar.

The standard of striker in the prem is also better, so the stat is levelled out.

what I am saying is, when. Championship strikers comes up they find it harder against the better quality defender....thats what i meant by harder to come by.....Pukki is a prime example.

Edited July 30, 2020 by TRO

[cheltenham_villa]

50 minutes ago, TRO said:

It is interesting to read the stats in the Guardian...

• pre lockdown we had a stat of 5.8 shots on target on average in every game, by opponents
• post Lockdown we had a a stat of 2.6  shots on target on average in every game, by opponents.

That is an incredible turn around.....we were 4th best, behind Liverpool, Man City, and Wolves.

I am hoping Dean has learnt such a lot from Lockdown and judging by these stats, he has......if we can keep that up and invest in the attack, anything is possible.

 

I'm gonna stick up for TRO here (not something I thought I'd do). While he perhaps was a bit critical of Dean, what he really made a case for was that we earnt the right to play attacking football once we'd cemented a strong defensive footing. It looked for a while like Dean would not make that compromise. The change in style and subsequent success went along way in validating that opinion. 

[Paulie]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

It is interesting to read the stats in the Guardian...

• pre lockdown we had a stat of 5.8 shots on target on average in every game, by opponents
• post Lockdown we had a a stat of 2.6  shots on target on average in every game, by opponents.

That is an incredible turn around.....we were 4th best, behind Liverpool, Man City, and Wolves.

I am hoping Dean has learnt such a lot from Lockdown and judging by these stats, he has......if we can keep that up and invest in the attack, anything is possible.

 

Piggybacking off this - tactically Dean obviously got it right after the lockdown, but we really looked rock solid once:

• Luiz took ownership of that deep lying CDM role.  He has great instincts and pace to break up play, is comfortable on the ball and in distribution.  Before lockdown he was shuffled around, played in the more forward CM slots where Hourihane and McGinn were.  
• Konsa paired with Mings. Both have bundles of pace and moving forward should be able to cover our overlapping wing backs the way Dean likes to have them push forward.

Getting the tactics right is one thing, but how often have we seen villa managers play players out of position... getting the personnel right is the other half of the equation.  Both Luiz and Konsa looked comfortable in their roles and with their instruction - it made all the difference.

[DaveAV1]

50 minutes ago, A'Villan said:

You might be a fan of this quote, "Offense brings in the crowds, but defense wins you championships

I can’t remember which manager coined this phrase, it could have been Shankly or Cloughie, “Strikers for show defenders for dough”. Means pretty much the same and I would think is pretty accurate the vast majority of the time. 

[TRO]

18 hours ago, cheltenham_villa said:

I'm gonna stick up for TRO here (not something I thought I'd do). While he perhaps was a bit critical of Dean, what he really made a case for was that we earnt the right to play attacking football once we'd cemented a strong defensive footing. It looked for a while like Dean would not make that compromise. The change in style and subsequent success went along way in validating that opinion. 

Not critical of Dean per se.......critical of what Dean was doing......there is a subtle difference many of my adversaries was not picking up on.

what he did after Lock down was precisely, what I was getting at......He had time to study and came up trumps.

but thanks.

Edited July 31, 2020 by TRO

[A'Villan]

14 minutes ago, DaveAV1 said:

I can’t remember which manager coined this phrase, it could have been Shankly or Cloughie, “Strikers for show defenders for dough”. Means pretty much the same and I would think is pretty accurate the vast majority of the time. 

"Hard work beats talent when talent fails to work hard"

@TRO oftentimes talks about fight and winning the contested plays.

Defense is all about tenacity and stamina, anticipating and winning a contest that you're behind in.

If you can do that better than your opponents, more often than not, you're certainly in good stead.

[TRO]

18 hours ago, DaveAV1 said:

I can’t remember which manager coined this phrase, it could have been Shankly or Cloughie, “Strikers for show defenders for dough”. Means pretty much the same and I would think is pretty accurate the vast majority of the time. 

Bang on.

Dave..you know how much I have banged the drum for a good defensive capability in a team......but I am also a fan of swashbuckling football too.....who isn't.

its getting that blend that enables us to pick up valuable points, that I cherish.

I can temper my appetite for attacking football, while we are developing in pursuit of points.....winning games is the holy grail for me, the entertainment can come later.

Edited July 31, 2020 by TRO

[TRO]

17 hours ago, A'Villan said:

"Hard work beats talent when talent fails to work hard"

@TRO oftentimes talks about fight and winning the contested plays.

Defense is all about tenacity and stamina, anticipating and winning a contest that you're behind in.

If you can do that better than your opponents, more often than not, you're certainly in good stead.

Precisely.

but that does not mean, I am all for parking the bus.......far from it.

I appreciate the arguments to be entertained and playing attacking football....I am all for it.

Norwich, Sheff Utd and Ourselves.....have illustrated the difficulties of coming in to this arduous and demanding league, grinding out points is not what we want, but it was necessary and we did it.....this league poses no easy games, you have to be at it, to get anything back.....and anyone can beat anyone on the day.....who could call Watford beating Liverpool or our last few minutes before our falter, against them...we led for 87 minutes.

I hope in the Transfer window, we reflect some of this stuff.

Edited July 31, 2020 by TRO