Dean Smith

[TRO]

4 hours ago, Johnnyp said:

I remember when Euro 2000 was on. I was 16 at the time. QF Holland V Italy. I distinctly remember my summary of the game was roughly " holland battered them, Italy got lucky " Watched it again recently and whilst Holland were wasteful at times it had to be one of the best defensive displays ive ever seen that started with Albertini in midfield. They're awareness of where they are, shape. Italians attack the ball also, love it. My younger self had no appreciation of this.

Its an excellent point.....I am far more aware of the finer arts of the game, than i was in my 30's......that is not being disrespectful to younger fans.

Fans are like players that get better with experience, sure you get old heads on young shoulders.....but watching too is a learning process.

I think i mentioned on here before, i used to grimace at Des Bremner, thinking he lacked the talent of the others,what an idiot i was, i was not appreciating the job he did....I told him once just to purposely embarrass myself as penance....he smiled " better late than never"....... defending is an art, usually created by organisation and group effort and synchronised action in a galvanised format.....managers and coaches do that and get the right players to do it.....without it attacking football cannot prosper and grow.......its like a pretty flower with no support stick, the wind will just break it....and end up with nothing.

Edited July 10, 2020 by TRO

[jim]

33 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

The more I read stuff like this the more sympathy I have for the manager. 

The more stuff like that I read, it confirms to me we have an atrocious manager. 

[jim]

double post

Edited July 10, 2020 by jim

[The Fun Factory]

Well I am fairly certain they will take down that cheesy photo with Deano and Jack holding the tinpot trophy at the back of the North Stand fairly sharpish.

[Vive_La_Villa]

Look we all know we have poor players. The quality just isn’t there. So the only way to compensate is the effort and desire. I saw that yesterday until we conceded. Then I saw players, one in particular totally give up and not really care when we conceded.  That was when I knew we were down and Smith has to go.

Edited July 10, 2020 by Vive_La_Villa

[Stevo985]

1 hour ago, DCJonah said:

You shouldn't be surprised. Our squad is atrocious. Easily bottom 3 in the league. 

So grealish loss of form is all down to smith? So then he gets all the credit for the big improvement in luiz? Does that not counter it?

 

Yes. He gets part of the credit for improving Luiz as he gets part of the responsibility for any loss of form in Jack. 
 

He also gets part of the responsibility of the loss in form of the entire team.

Stop being so black and white. I didn’t say it was all down to Smith. I said Smith’s job is to get the best out of his players. It’s his job to motivate them, use them correctly, and manage the team in a way that gets us points in football matches. He’s not doing his job very well. 
 

If you’re going to absolve him of responsibility for everything then what exactly IS he doing right?

[jim]

26 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

Look we all know we have poor players. The quality just isn’t there. So the only way to compensate is the effort and desire. I saw of that yesterday until we conceded. Then I saw players, one in particular totally give up and not really care when we conceded.  That was when I knew we were down and Smith has to go.

This.

Ive said it a thousand times if we looked organised and showed some fight I wouldn’t be anywhere near as harsh on him. But we’ve seen very little of that this season. In his own words my teams mirror me. Says it all really.

Not to mention he as good as admitted he threw in the towel in the second half yesterday. Unforgivable.

Edited July 10, 2020 by jim

[TRO]

3 hours ago, VillaCas said:

I don’t think we lack discipline - we are not having players sent off, there is no talk of unrest, there are not rows between the bench and the players and if your argument is that it is because DS is too affable John Terry is certainly not - what are your examples of a lack of discipline?

Secondly, I don’t believe that the majority of our players are any less fit than any other PL team - I will exclude Nakamba, Wesley and Samatta from this but would argue that there slow start to the season was due to the league they arrived from. Who else isn’t fit?? Trez is a prime example of someone who can tear around all day (but too no avail)

Thirdly, you argue we haven’t got the right sort of player who can do the ugly stuff - chase, win the ball, fight etc - I would argue that we have got the right type but are not ready for PL football week in week out (Nakamba, Luiz) injured ( McGinn) or not of sufficient quality (Trez, Davis).......there is also the perennial debate about who takes responsibility for the recruitment of these players

Ultimately the situation is

- 18 months ago we had an ageing squad and an over reliance on loanees

- We got promoted against expectations 

- We had a late start to the transfer window due to the play-offs and turnover of 30+ players

You can disagree about expectations all day long but people got carried away with £140m spent (It’s not that much when you are buying 15 players) and had grandiose expectations of battling at the top half of the table - as you know I predicted that we would be in a battle for 17th place

Im not upset with Smith because my expectation was that we would be exactly where we are ( and I never thought that a battle for 17th would feel anything but massively frustrating)

If a quality manager is available I would take him but if not I would rather stick with Smith and trust that he has learnt a lot from the PL and from a full season with his players - should he stay I would expect that many of the problems we’ve seen will be addressed by a few more experienced heads in the transfer window

I don’t think JohnTerry is an idiot and I don’t think he would be sticking around here if he thought Smith was

I don't mean that kind of discipline....not in that context anyway.

examples....doing what the manager asks them to do....even Roy Keane gave an example of Mings being 2 yards short of closing down, he said "i can't believe Dean hasn't told him that"....he might have done.....if you don't do as you're told its a lack of discipline.

all season they have faltered after 70 minutes, thats not a fit team, they do not physically indulge themselves like most of the division, they don't look like fitness is high on the agenda to me.....John MCGinn doesn't look fit, in fact he looks overweight, if anything.

The discipline of doing the basics right.

I just don't see the whole thing as you do....hence we rarely agree....you make your case for mitigation, fair enough.....i just don't buy it, as a fair reason to be central of where we are.

you challenge my views, fair enough, but then offer no substance to substantiate you're own.

In most cases its just the feel i get, from watching villa so long, i have seen instances like this before.

 

[sheepyvillian]

26 minutes ago, TRO said:

Its an excellent point.....I am far more aware of the finer arts of the game, than i was in my 30's......that is not being disrespectful to younger fans.

Fans are like players that get better with experience, sure you get old heads on young shoulders.....but watching too is a learning process.

I think i mentioned on here before, i used to grimace at Des Bremner, thinking he lacked the talent of the others,what an idiot i was, i was not appreciating the job he did....I told him once just to purposely embarrass myself as penance....he smiled " better late than never"....... defending is an art, usually created by organisation and group effort and synchronised action in a galvanised format.....managers and coaches do that and get the right players to do it.....without it attacking football cannot prosper and grow.......its like a pretty flower with no support stick, the wind will just break it....and end up with nothing.

I remember when defending was about getting your knees dirty. Our defenders can't even master the defensive header. 

[TRO]

7 minutes ago, sheepyvillian said:

I remember when defending was about getting your knees dirty. Our defenders can't even master the defensive header. 

But is it demanded of them?

The sad thing is sheepy.....i think some folk think we like saying what we say. We are just trying to be realistic.

it kills me to talk about my team like this.....off this board, i would defend them to other fans.....but i am talking to my own....its obvious we are poor.

I am not going to accept denial from my own supporters, they can indulge in it, if they please, but i want a change from this debacle after every game.

Edited July 10, 2020 by TRO

[hippo]

Well things look pretty grim right now - but there is one drastic measure that Smith no has too try. ......put himself and the whole squad on a strict vegan diet ...that might just save our bacon....(ooppps !) ..

 

 

[A'Villan]

I think @romavillan said quite aptly that you give this team PL standard players in the form of two wingers, two full backs and a striker and there's no way we go down under Smith. I'd go as far as to say that if you gave us the striker and one quality winger we stay up, and that's partially what frustrates me here, is that we aren't even down yet. There's still scope for this team to survive, and for us to bring in the quality that we need in the starting XI. Right now, we play nearly every game without a wide forward who can penetrate and create on one of the flanks, or when we do have two wide forwards who are a threat, we compromise midfield by having someone come into midfield who perhaps is yet to show PL quality. Yes we have some great potential with our midfield players in Luiz and McGinn, and a player in Grealish who could hold his own in any fixture when he's on song, we also have the makings of a good defensive unit when injury free, but man up front, just look at Watford compared to us, a player like Trez doesn't make the bench there. Only Norwich, Bournemouth and Brighton are in a similar spot, Perhaps Sheffield but however it's been done it's  a non-issue for them.

I'm aware we spent over 100 million, I've made multiple posts on squad turnover, and how that turnover in personnel compared to that of our opponents, we didn't have the luxury of retaining 90% of our squad and adding a piece or three where needed. Only team in the division in that predicament. Add to this the whole of our squad Grealish included is cutting their teeth at this level. Yes, Grealish included, when's he ever had to step up and play to the standards required before this season in the PL? Never! He's never dealt with the level of expectation he holds right now.

Edited July 10, 2020 by A'Villan

[Johnnyp]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

Its an excellent point.....I am far more aware of the finer arts of the game, than i was in my 30's......that is not being disrespectful to younger fans.

Fans are like players that get better with experience, sure you get old heads on young shoulders.....but watching too is a learning process.

I think i mentioned on here before, i used to grimace at Des Bremner, thinking he lacked the talent of the others,what an idiot i was, i was not appreciating the job he did....I told him once just to purposely embarrass myself as penance....he smiled " better late than never"....... defending is an art, usually created by organisation and group effort and synchronised action in a galvanised format.....managers and coaches do that and get the right players to do it.....without it attacking football cannot prosper and grow.......its like a pretty flower with no support stick, the wind will just break it....and end up with nothing.

This was one of my very earliest memories of Villa. Again, would of not noticed any of this but this guy....wow. Worth remembering too that Serie A teams were elite these years, better than English league. He could of played Italian football every week and not looked out of place. We've got lucky when we've rolled the dice on players who were perceived as injury prone or not quite good enough when it came to defenders. I'd heard of Laursen, was highly rated in Italy but thought Milan knew something we didn't when i heard he was coming to us for 3 million ! The reality ? Couldn't get in ahead of Nesta, Maldini and Stam. Then Mellberg from racing Santander. Are these guys just not out there anymore. Has the landscape changed that much. How can Celtic pluck the now best CB in the world from Groningen. Have we gone away from the good old fashioned method of sending scouts to games. 

 

 

[GingerCollins29]

2 hours ago, villalad21 said:

If he isn't sacked it's clear to see Purslow is in charge of everything.

There is no way the owners would accept such failure with the huge amount of money they invested.

This suggests purslow would be happy with the way dean's gone about things??

[hippo]

Just now, GingerCollins29 said:

This suggests purslow would be happy with the way dean's gone about things??

I think it would be a collective decision - Purslow might do the deed - but he will need the ok from the owners, assuming the owners don't instigate it anyway.

[hippo]

11 minutes ago, Johnnyp said:

This was one of my very earliest memories of Villa. Again, would of not noticed any of this but this guy....wow. Worth remembering too that Serie A teams were elite these years, better than English league. He could of played Italian football every week and not looked out of place. We've got lucky when we've rolled the dice on players who were perceived as injury prone or not quite good enough when it came to defenders. I'd heard of Laursen, was highly rated in Italy but thought Milan knew something we didn't when i heard he was coming to us for 3 million ! The reality ? Couldn't get in ahead of Nesta, Maldini and Stam. Then Mellberg from racing Santander. Are these guys just not out there anymore. Has the landscape changed that much. How can Celtic pluck the now best CB in the world from Groningen. Have we gone away from the good old fashioned method of sending scouts to games. 

 

 

It was Graham Taylor who plucked McGrath from Man U - but the real masterstroke was not making him train - he just kept fit by doing gym work. That's Judgement more than luck IMO.

Many thought Peter Withe too old - and who'd have thought shifting Kenny swain from winger to full back would work - ....

What sort of people get these decisions right ?

 

 

Edited July 10, 2020 by hippo

[ciggiesnbeer]

2 hours ago, useless said:

I've been banned from quoting other posts, I only quote myself and the bard.

Kanye?

[momo]

Moneyball

[DCJonah]

9 hours ago, jim said:

The more stuff like that I read, it confirms to me we have an atrocious manager. 

How can that stat make you blame smith? 

You can argue that we don't create many chances but not even the biggest critic of smith could claim we've made no chances for any attacking player in the last 10 game. 

Davis missed 2/3 good chances against Sheffield. Samatta and trez missed good chances against newcastle. Grealish and trez missed good chances against man u. 

That stat just confirms how bad the standard in our team is. To switch that onto the manager, when you know for a fact that our attacking players have had chances, shows its just criticising for the sake of it.

[Zatman]

8 hours ago, Johnnyp said:

This was one of my very earliest memories of Villa. Again, would of not noticed any of this but this guy....wow. Worth remembering too that Serie A teams were elite these years, better than English league. He could of played Italian football every week and not looked out of place. We've got lucky when we've rolled the dice on players who were perceived as injury prone or not quite good enough when it came to defenders. I'd heard of Laursen, was highly rated in Italy but thought Milan knew something we didn't when i heard he was coming to us for 3 million ! The reality ? Couldn't get in ahead of Nesta, Maldini and Stam. Then Mellberg from racing Santander. Are these guys just not out there anymore. Has the landscape changed that much. How can Celtic pluck the now best CB in the world from Groningen. Have we gone away from the good old fashioned method of sending scouts to games. 

 

 

In fairness all of them defenders you have mentioned there is none like that anymore. Defending is a dead art except for a rare few. Look through the Premier League and is very little quality centre backs even among the top teams. Laporte, Van Dijk, Gomez are the best but after that its poor standard. Jonny Evans maybe at a push, Spurs Belgian defenders have gone backwards. United, Chelsea, Arsenal have nothing impressive. Wolves and Sheffield United have good defences but play a 3 so hard to tell what the individual quality if the defenders are