Popular Post HanoiVillan Posted November 4, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted November 4, 2023 47 minutes ago, Davkaus said: I'm also not particularly willing to charitably excuse his sharing of a Palestine flag on the day of a massacre. I think there are two points here. The first is that 'on the day of the massacre' it was not immediately clear that there had in fact been a massacre, until some time had passed. Now I don't know what time he posted, but that is something to bear in mind. The second is that showing a flag is not celebrating a massacre; it is the policy of both the UK and German governments (among many others) that there should be a 'two state solution', and it cannot be beyond the pale to display the flag of one of the states we are supposedly (heavy sarcasm) working toward the existence of. The Israeli government has now been committing war crimes for weeks, but I don't think most people assume that anyone flying or displaying the Israeli flag is *automatically* endorsing the worst actions their military is taking (they may actually be endorsing those actions of course, but you would know that by their words, not by the action of flying or displaying a flag). 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Keyblade Posted November 4, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted November 4, 2023 13 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: I think there are two points here. The first is that 'on the day of the massacre' it was not immediately clear that there had in fact been a massacre, until some time had passed. Now I don't know what time he posted, but that is something to bear in mind. The second is that showing a flag is not celebrating a massacre; it is the policy of both the UK and German governments (among many others) that there should be a 'two state solution', and it cannot be beyond the pale to display the flag of one of the states we are supposedly (heavy sarcasm) working toward the existence of. The Israeli government has now been committing war crimes for weeks, but I don't think most people assume that anyone flying or displaying the Israeli flag is *automatically* endorsing the worst actions their military is taking (they may actually be endorsing those actions of course, but you would know that by their words, not by the action of flying or displaying a flag). Another point is that a Palestinian flag is not a Hamas flag and so shouldn't be automatically conflated with the attack unless you conflate the two as well. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted November 4, 2023 Share Posted November 4, 2023 9 minutes ago, Keyblade said: Another point is that a Palestinian flag is not a Hamas flag and so shouldn't be automatically conflated with the attack unless you conflate the two as well. This is also an extremely good point that I should have made, yes. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Chindie Posted November 4, 2023 VT Supporter Popular Post Share Posted November 4, 2023 There is very pointedly an effort to delegitimise a Palestinian identity at the moment. Subtly implying that showing a Palestinian flag is taboo, that support for the Palestinian cause is support for terrorism, etc etc. We already have the case that Palestine isn't even recognised as a country by a number of states (including us, to our shame). Erasing it's flag will only help to legitimise erasing it entirely. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted November 4, 2023 Share Posted November 4, 2023 40 minutes ago, Keyblade said: Another point is that a Palestinian flag is not a Hamas flag and so shouldn't be automatically conflated with the attack unless you conflate the two as well. While this is true, within the context it's hard to see his initial tweet on 7th October as being anything other than at least a partial endorsement of the attacks. Just imagine for example if a group of Ukrainian terrorists, under direct orders from elements of the Ukrainian government, crossed into Russia and deliberately slaughtered over 1,000 Russian civilians in some of the most barbaric ways imaginable, and then someone like Matty Cash (who has no immediate connection to Ukraine in the same way El Ghazi has no immediate connection to Palestine) tweeted a picture of himself holding a Ukrainian flag on the same day, with the Ukrainian terrorist attack still under way. That would understandably be seen as an endorsement of the attack. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted November 4, 2023 Share Posted November 4, 2023 (edited) 35 minutes ago, Mantis said: While this is true, within the context it's hard to see his initial tweet on 7th October as being anything other than at least a partial endorsement of the attacks. Just imagine for example if a group of Ukrainian terrorists, under direct orders from elements of the Ukrainian government, crossed into Russia and deliberately slaughtered over 1,000 Russian civilians in some of the most barbaric ways imaginable, and then someone like Matty Cash (who has no immediate connection to Ukraine in the same way El Ghazi has no immediate connection to Palestine) tweeted a picture of himself holding a Ukrainian flag on the same day, with the Ukrainian terrorist attack still under way. That would understandably be seen as an endorsement of the attack. His first post was on the 17th, no? By which point the casualty count in Gaza was already in the 4 figure range. Edit: I believe it was the 12th, but the point still stands. Edited November 4, 2023 by Keyblade 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThunderPower_14 Posted November 5, 2023 Share Posted November 5, 2023 2 hours ago, Chindie said: The only way to combat the false nature of it being controversial is to have people use it and particularly those with visibility. Reclaim it. Making it verboten is essentially racist in nature. Agree completely with this. Countries everywhere who have been colonised have similar sort of statements. Indigenous Australians have phrases like "sovereignty never ceded" and "always was, always will be Aboriginal land" which are basically the equivalent of from the River to the Sea in intent and purpose. It's only controversial because Israel, through the support of Western powers, has managed to normalise the idea that anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism which gives them carte blanche to accuse anyone who isn't active supporting Israel of racism. It's gotten to an absolutely insane, boogeyman proportions in some cases, fuelled by the media. Look at what happened to Corbyn. It's important for people to publicly stand up for Palestinians even when it's inconvenient for them to do so, which Anwar has done here, costing him his job and putting his career in jeopardy. He's displayed absolutely incredible character here, again. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted November 5, 2023 Share Posted November 5, 2023 47 minutes ago, Keyblade said: His first post was on the 17th, no? By which point the casualty count in Gaza was already in the 4 figure range. Edit: I believe it was the 12th, but the point still stands. No, the flag RT was on the 7th. That's why it was so odd because it was before any kind of Israeli response and while terrorists where still at large. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted November 5, 2023 Share Posted November 5, 2023 5 minutes ago, Mantis said: No, the flag RT was on the 7th. That's why it was so odd because it was before any kind of Israeli response and while terrorists where still at large. Oh I see the RT you're talking about from a Brazilian Villa fan account. Strange. Not sure what the context is there. Seems like Mainz had no issues with him until he made the "From the river..." Instagram post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philosopher Posted November 5, 2023 Share Posted November 5, 2023 What gets totally ignored in all this is that when Britain gave the Jewish people the land we call Israel now it was far smaller, and the Palestinians were also granted a significant amount of land which Israel has since taken much of. Also Israel have taken land from all of its neighbours, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan. The reason Israel is hated in the middle East isn't because they are Jewish, it's because they use force to take other nations land. And persecute the Palestinians. Over a million innocent Palestinians have been killed by the various offensives of the Israeli forces. A number that is more than ten times the number Israelis that have died. It's genocidal levels of murder based on race! America (primarily) and Briton make billions from selling weapons to Israel. Britain started the persecution of the Palestinians when we colonised Palestine in the 19th century. Britain even sold Palestinian land to Jewish people in order to utilise divide and rule tactics to suppress the continual uprisings occurring in Palestine. However the Jewish community in Palestine at the time refused to be drawn in and it didn't work. When the second World War arrived the Palestinians sided with Germany, because they wanted independence from Britain, and Britain refused to give it. Ironically this definitely caused a grievance between Palestinian and Jewish people. This whole conflict is a cluster f**k created by Briton and perpetuated by America. We owe both sides a peaceful and lasting resolution. 1 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted November 5, 2023 Share Posted November 5, 2023 13 hours ago, Chindie said: From the river to the sea isn't a controversial phrase, and the attempt to make it so is trying to erase Palestinians and insisting that any concept of a free Palestine is a threat to Israel. Sorry, but this is utter bollocks. Even if you want to argue it has an innocent creation, it’s a phrase long used by Hamas. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post StewieGriffin Posted November 15, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted November 15, 2023 On 04/11/2023 at 08:59, The_Steve said: Hope he’s got a good employment lawyer He just might... Quote Dutch winger Anwar El Ghazi is taking legal action against former club Mainz for wrongful dismissal. Mainz terminated El Ghazi's contract on 2 November after a series of social media posts he made about the Israel-Gaza conflict. "I don't see any statement in the latest post that is not covered by freedom of expression," the winger's lawyer told Allgemeine Zeitung. Mainz say they have been informed about the case by El Ghazi's legal team. In a statement to BBC Sport, they added they will not be commenting further "as it is an ongoing legal proceeding". Meanwhile, BBC Sport has seen a spate of abusive messages sent to the 28-year-old on social media, a number of which include death threats against the player and his family, as well as referring him to as a "terrorist". Some of the abusive messages appear to be from accounts in the United Kingdom and have been passed on to the UK Football Policing Unit to investigate. El Ghazi was originally suspended by Mainz on 17 October, following a social media post which included the controversial phrase "from the river to the sea", a pro-Palestinian message which critics say implies the destruction of Israel. But that interpretation is disputed by some pro-Palestinian activists who say that most people chanting it are calling for an end to Israel's occupation of the West Bank and blockade of Gaza, not the destruction of Israel itself. Mainz said El Ghazi's post "took a position on the conflict in the Middle East in a manner that wasn't tolerable for the club". The former Everton and Aston Villa player was threatened with contract termination by Mainz on 27 October, but returned to the squad three days later, saying that he stands "for peace above everything". "Given his commitment to upholding the club's values and the remorse shown, and in keeping with the club's culture of using mistakes as an opportunity to learn, El Ghazi will return to training and matchday-related activities," said the Bundesliga club. El Ghazi subsequently revealed, however, that he had not authorised the club's statement confirming his return, saying: "I do not distance myself from what I said and stand for humanity and on the side of the oppressed until the last day I breathe." The German club then terminated his contract with immediate effect "in response to the player's statements and posts on social media. Following the termination of his contract, El Ghazi said: "Stand for what is right, even if it means standing alone. "The loss of my livelihood is nothing when compared to the hell being unleashed on the innocent and vulnerable in Gaza." One of Mainz's founding members, and its first chairman, was Eugen Salomon - a Jewish man who was stripped of his club functions by the Nazis in 1933 before being killed in the Holocaust in 1942. The Holocaust, carried out by Nazi Germany during World War Two, claimed the lives of an estimated six million Jews. A road leading up to Mainz's stadium is named Eugen Salomon Strasse. Good on him 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrBlack Posted November 15, 2023 Share Posted November 15, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, StewieGriffin said: He just might... Good on him Two wrongs don't make a right. Oppressing Jews in the past, and then oppressing their future enemies in the present as an apology, doesn't stack up. Anwar should have a decent chance as German employment law is notoriously protective of employees... at least I thought it was. Edited November 15, 2023 by MrBlack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted November 15, 2023 Share Posted November 15, 2023 15 minutes ago, MrBlack said: Two wrongs don't make a right. Oppressing Jews in the past, and then oppressing their future enemies in the present as an apology, doesn't stack up. Anwar should have a decent chance as German employment law is notoriously protective of employees... at least I thought it was. It is but the issue for Anwar is because it is so difficult to sack somebody then the Mainz lawyers will have really examined that contract Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted November 15, 2023 Share Posted November 15, 2023 2 hours ago, MrBlack said: Two wrongs don't make a right. Oppressing Jews in the past, and then oppressing their future enemies in the present as an apology, doesn't stack up. Anwar should have a decent chance as German employment law is notoriously protective of employees... at least I thought it was. Who told you that?! It is compared to other countries, especially such as the states but in my experience it's not as protective as the UK I can be sacked for gross misconduct at my current place, at my old place they could give me 3 months termination notice at any time for any reason, I think its increasing in the UK too but both of them came with a 6 month probation period, a lot of German employee rights only kick in after that 6 months Its hard to say with footballer contract, there will be very specific and detailed clauses that are not standard, probably more clauses with regards to termination and what they consider gross misconduct, der spiegel are reporting that he's pursuing legal action due to dismissal without notice, guy at my place got sacked last week (caught taking days off on holiday without actually booking them off) the company wrote him a 2 page letter telling him what was happening, when and why, fully referencing every bit of employment law they could and made him sign it, sounds like mainz didn't do that, so he's not suing them for wrongful dismissal as such he's suing them for dismissing him wrongly Whats really crazy is the wording der spiegel uses, according to them he repeatedly posted anti Israel messages on social media - not pro Palestine, it states more than once "anti Israel" - and then goes on to say that he contradicted the Mainz statement that he showed remorse for his actions - if you then read other newspapers they're doing that "reporting" thing where they're regurgitating other people's stories with "as reported by bild" or "by Allgemeine Zeitung" they change the language, the kolner stadt paper is 95% the same words as die spiegel but changes "anti Israel" to "pro Palestine" Bold are saying that he has a court appearance on the 6th December to first ascertain exactly why mainz sacked him (that's the whole without notice thing) and then to see if it was unlawful and that they'd owe him €2.5m if he wins 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrBlack Posted November 15, 2023 Share Posted November 15, 2023 4 minutes ago, villa4europe said: Who told you that?! It is compared to other countries, especially such as the states but in my experience it's not as protective as the UK I can be sacked for gross misconduct at my current place, at my old place they could give me 3 months termination notice at any time for any reason, I think its increasing in the UK too but both of them came with a 6 month probation period, a lot of German employee rights only kick in after that 6 months Its hard to say with footballer contract, there will be very specific and detailed clauses that are not standard, probably more clauses with regards to termination and what they consider gross misconduct, der spiegel are reporting that he's pursuing legal action due to dismissal without notice, guy at my place got sacked last week (caught taking days off on holiday without actually booking them off) the company wrote him a 2 page letter telling him what was happening, when and why, fully referencing every bit of employment law they could and made him sign it, sounds like mainz didn't do that, so he's not suing them for wrongful dismissal as such he's suing them for dismissing him wrongly Whats really crazy is the wording der spiegel uses, according to them he repeatedly posted anti Israel messages on social media - not pro Palestine, it states more than once "anti Israel" - and then goes on to say that he contradicted the Mainz statement that he showed remorse for his actions - if you then read other newspapers they're doing that "reporting" thing where they're regurgitating other people's stories with "as reported by bild" or "by Allgemeine Zeitung" they change the language, the kolner stadt paper is 95% the same words as die spiegel but changes "anti Israel" to "pro Palestine" Bold are saying that he has a court appearance on the 6th December to first ascertain exactly why mainz sacked him (that's the whole without notice thing) and then to see if it was unlawful and that they'd owe him €2.5m if he wins From my (admittedly very limited) experience. I've seen them be exempt from performing certain activities that other employees have to do, and kind of assumed this was german specific law and extended that view to all employment law. from what you say sounds like I may well be wrong! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted November 15, 2023 Share Posted November 15, 2023 1 hour ago, villa4europe said: Who told you that?! It is compared to other countries, especially such as the states but in my experience it's not as protective as the UK I can be sacked for gross misconduct at my current place, at my old place they could give me 3 months termination notice at any time for any reason, I think its increasing in the UK too but both of them came with a 6 month probation period, a lot of German employee rights only kick in after that 6 months Its hard to say with footballer contract, there will be very specific and detailed clauses that are not standard, probably more clauses with regards to termination and what they consider gross misconduct, der spiegel are reporting that he's pursuing legal action due to dismissal without notice, guy at my place got sacked last week (caught taking days off on holiday without actually booking them off) the company wrote him a 2 page letter telling him what was happening, when and why, fully referencing every bit of employment law they could and made him sign it, sounds like mainz didn't do that, so he's not suing them for wrongful dismissal as such he's suing them for dismissing him wrongly Whats really crazy is the wording der spiegel uses, according to them he repeatedly posted anti Israel messages on social media - not pro Palestine, it states more than once "anti Israel" - and then goes on to say that he contradicted the Mainz statement that he showed remorse for his actions - if you then read other newspapers they're doing that "reporting" thing where they're regurgitating other people's stories with "as reported by bild" or "by Allgemeine Zeitung" they change the language, the kolner stadt paper is 95% the same words as die spiegel but changes "anti Israel" to "pro Palestine" Bold are saying that he has a court appearance on the 6th December to first ascertain exactly why mainz sacked him (that's the whole without notice thing) and then to see if it was unlawful and that they'd owe him €2.5m if he wins How do you take days off without booking? Like logistically how does that work? Just not show up to work and say you were on vacation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted November 15, 2023 Share Posted November 15, 2023 1 minute ago, Keyblade said: How do you take days off without booking? Like logistically how does that work? Just not show up to work and say you were on vacation? Site based construction team, tell everyone on site you've got next Friday booked off, the manager in the Central office knows nothing about it, the people on site don't know enough of the details to prove he's up to no good, as we're in Germany some of the team also rotate so 10 days on 4 days off back home, he was going missing on days when certain people who would have spotted it weren't there He was turning up late and not putting the hours in anyway and shit at his job so they looked in to him and found what they needed But the point is you can sack someone, you just have to do it properly in line with all the german paperwork, if you fail to do the paperwork you're in a world of trouble 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuwabatake Sanjuro Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 Doing the easy thing of ripping Piers Morgan to shreds on social media today, disappointed that he hasn't been linked to any clubs yet though. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 1 hour ago, Kuwabatake Sanjuro said: Doing the easy thing of ripping Piers Morgan to shreds on social media today, disappointed that he hasn't been linked to any clubs yet though. Not sure he can actually play for anybody this season as he has played for PSV and Mainz. Unless back to PSV 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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