John McGinn

[picicata]

24 minutes ago, Risso said:

He's a bloody midfielder, and it's unfair that he's being asked to play in midfield? I've never read such nonsense. He's just not very good, and shouldn't be anywhere near the first team, let alone being made captain. 

It's more the fact he's being asked to cover the full back position that people are pointing out. It's no coincidence that both McGinn and JJ have been crap this season, they're both having to play a weird midfielder/ full back position that suits neither.

I agree he shouldn't be captain and that he does need time out of the team but he can still be an asset if he is used in the correct way. At the very least we need to avoid bomb squading him as that reduces his value were we to sell him.

[chappy]

Said this in the City reactions thread but think he needs to sit out the next two games on the bench and then get away with Scotland and try and build up a little confidence there during the break. It’s almost embarrassing by how much better we look without him on the pitch at the moment. Really like the guy but it seemed clear at the start of the season that he was the weaker link in this system - makes the captaincy decision even more baffling!

[KentVillan]

44 minutes ago, Risso said:

He's a bloody midfielder, and it's unfair that he's being asked to play in midfield? I've never read such nonsense. He's just not very good, and shouldn't be anywhere near the first team, let alone being made captain. 

Nobody’s saying it’s unfair. And I agree, a better all round midfielder would be handling this role better, so a lot of it comes down to his own ability.

But he’s clearly been playing a slightly different role from the one in which he has excelled in the past for Villa (and currently plays for Scotland). We all know there isn’t just one type of centre mid.

[Risso]

1 hour ago, KentVillan said:

Nobody’s saying it’s unfair. And I agree, a better all round midfielder would be handling this role better, so a lot of it comes down to his own ability.

But he’s clearly been playing a slightly different role from the one in which he has excelled in the past for Villa (and currently plays for Scotland). We all know there isn’t just one type of centre mid.

He plays as one of the attacking three under Scotland usually, or sometimes as a 10 just behind the front two, which he's never done for Villa as far as I'm aware.  Fine when they're playing the likes of Israel or Faroe Islands, but as soon as they come up against anybody half decent like Ukraine, he's back to being ineffective. In the current midfield three, Kamara is the defensive mid, so he's just being asked to play the role he's done for the majority of his time at Villa, ie as one of the two more attack-minded of the three central midfielders, ie a number 8. He's just not very good.

[KentVillan]

12 minutes ago, Risso said:

He plays as one of the attacking three under Scotland usually, or sometimes as a 10 just behind the front two, which he's never done for Villa as far as I'm aware.  Fine when they're playing the likes of Israel or Faroe Islands, but as soon as they come up against anybody half decent like Ukraine, he's back to being ineffective. In the current midfield three, Kamara is the defensive mid, so he's just being asked to play the role he's done for the majority of his time at Villa, ie as one of the two more attack-minded of the three central midfielders, ie a number 8. He's just not very good.

I think the way he was used originally in Smith's 4-3-3 was a much more attacking role in a more direct system - it was really a 4-1-4-1 with the centre mids in front of Douglas Luiz pushing forwards, and also having wingers moving off them.

Under Gerrard he's been sitting deeper in a narrower shape, and we've been getting him involved much more in the build up play in our own half.

I agree he's not very good at this role, but it's revisionism to say he just isn't a good PL midfielder, when clearly he has in the past put in good performances against decent PL sides. I think he's "limited" rather than poor.

[Risso]

8 minutes ago, KentVillan said:

I think the way he was used originally in Smith's 4-3-3 was a much more attacking role in a more direct system - it was really a 4-1-4-1 with the centre mids in front of Douglas Luiz pushing forwards, and also having wingers moving off them.

 

I can't think of a single game where we've ever played 4-1-4-1, and I'd be interested to hear when you think this happened. When we line up now, Kamara stays deeper, and McGinn and Ramsey play further forward, in exactly the same way we used to when Smith played 4-3-3. The idea that this is some sort of novel position that makes John McGinn unable to play it is bizarre. McGinn has never played in the front three for us that I can recall. He's being asked to play a very typical slightly more attacking midfield role, and he's just really bad at it. The last good game I can recall him having was Palace away.

[a m ole]

15 minutes ago, Risso said:

I can't think of a single game where we've ever played 4-1-4-1, and I'd be interested to hear when you think this happened. When we line up now, Kamara stays deeper, and McGinn and Ramsey play further forward, in exactly the same way we used to when Smith played 4-3-3. The idea that this is some sort of novel position that makes John McGinn unable to play it is bizarre. McGinn has never played in the front three for us that I can recall. He's being asked to play a very typical slightly more attacking midfield role, and he's just really bad at it. The last good game I can recall him having was Palace away.

Smith sides would attack (don’t get too hung up on the personnel)

 Cash                  Luiz              Targett

Trezeguet McGinn Ramsey Grealish

                         Watkins

Gerrard team attacks

                       Kamara

Cash McGinn            Ramsey  Digne

        Bailey    Watkins    Coutinho

 

its definitely not the same role. Just look at any average position maps from both tenures. We also countered fast under Smith, but we try to control the ball under Gerrard.

Edited September 6, 2022 by a m ole

[KentVillan]

7 minutes ago, Risso said:

I can't think of a single game where we've ever played 4-1-4-1, and I'd be interested to hear when you think this happened. When we line up now, Kamara stays deeper, and McGinn and Ramsey play further forward, in exactly the same way we used to when Smith played 4-3-3. The idea that this is some sort of novel position that makes John McGinn unable to play it is bizarre. McGinn has never played in the front three for us that I can recall. He's being asked to play a very typical slightly more attacking midfield role, and he's just really bad at it. The last good game I can recall him having was Palace away.

I mean, 4-1-4-1 is just 4-3-3 with a designated holding midfielder, and the wingers tucking back into midfield. Smith used it loads.

The big difference is that McGinn under Gerrard has been playing in a system with no wingers, and where as @a m ole says, the full backs are bombing further forward and he is being asked to cover more.

This is a tedious debate, anyway. Think we all agree McGinn isn't performing at the moment.

[DJBOB]

McGinn was at his best as the attacking midfielder in a 3, and typically - on the opposite side of Jack for a majority of the time. All of his best games and highlights are in the right channel where he had the freedom to get forward. Think of the championship and prem configurations where he did best. Whelan/Hourihane/McGinn and then typically Luiz/Hourihane/McGinn or Nakamba/Hourihane or Luiz/McGinn. Someone playing as a six, someone playing more as a shuffler, and then McGinn getting forward. There were a run of games where Gerrard first started where Luiz/JJ/McGinn worked but not since the deployment of the midfielders at fullback tactics.

Problem is - is he good enough to consistently be played as an attacking mid in a 3 to force your team to changing into a midfield 3 since he doesn't have the positional discipline/reading/passing to be part of a midfield sitting 2?

The answer is probably closer to no on both of those questions which means he should not be a nailed on starter and more than likely will need to be moved on if we are to push for Europe. That being said, I do still think there's a place for him in the squad - just not as a nailed on starter and not someone to build your team around.

Edited September 6, 2022 by DJBOB

[Pinebro]

All this just shows how hard Grealish was carrying this team and players. 

[chappy]

50 minutes ago, Pinebro said:

All this just shows how hard Hourihane was carrying this team and players. 

Ftfy

[spiezels]

1 hour ago, Pinebro said:

All this just shows how hard Grealish was carrying this team and players. 

He made targett look incredible 

[foreveryoung]

McGinns a big boy and the captain. If he felt he wasn't performing to the best of his ability in that position, he could speak up and tell Gerrard. I'm not convinced he could give 100% anywhere, he just has no pace for our team now.

[calcifer]

Should be locked up he is stealing a living as a premier league midfielder.. 

[Steero113]

2 hours ago, calcifer said:

Should be locked up he is stealing a living as a premier league midfielder.. 

Out of form for ages but this is a typically ridiculous Villa fan comment. 

[Steero113]

On 06/09/2022 at 21:13, spiezels said:

He made targett look incredible 

F**king Houdini would have been proud of that feat. 

[calcifer]

Just now, Steero113 said:

Out of form for ages but this is a typically ridiculous Villa fan comment. 

No, he is just awful. Has been for about 18 months. Will make a great championship Midfielder, but he can't pass, one of the most fundamental duties as a midfielder.... 

[VillaParkAvenue]

2 hours ago, calcifer said:

No, he is just awful. Has been for about 18 months. Will make a great championship Midfielder, but he can't pass, one of the most fundamental duties as a midfielder.... 

He was great under a period when SG was new here. Villa were playing defensively in those games, it suited him better than Gerrard’s later possession experiments.

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

As our most technical player... I think he needs to be rested whilst the rest of the cloggers do the ugly stuff

 

[Panto_Villan]

I think he needs to be relieved of his playing duties because they’re interfering with his role as captain.