TRO Posted November 10, 2017 Share Posted November 10, 2017 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Dave J said: I’m not a MON fan - but what? I personallly would have him over Bruce in the blink of an eye One had far better players than the other though, Dave. In terms of results alone O'Neill has to be given credit. but O'Neill had 4 years and decent funds and didn't have such a poor base to take over from......4 wins in 18 months.i still think his team lacked sophistication. He will be given until the end of the season and the appraisal will be made. Edited November 10, 2017 by TRO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vreitti Posted November 10, 2017 Share Posted November 10, 2017 3 hours ago, TRO said: moot point. Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted November 10, 2017 Share Posted November 10, 2017 (edited) 3 minutes ago, vreitti said: Why? Because, i'm not sure I agree......why do you? Edited November 10, 2017 by TRO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vreitti Posted November 10, 2017 Share Posted November 10, 2017 (edited) 17 minutes ago, TRO said: Because, i don't agree......why do you? Why do I what? Think we have by far the best team? Isn't that obvious? We more or less bought the best (performing) players (Hogan, Kodjia, Hourihane, Adomah, RMC and Lansbury) of the league. Sure they didn't all 'work out', but that is more to do with Bruce and/or coaching imho. Add to that all the seasoned pros (Chester, Taylor, Jedinak, Whelan, De Laet Snodgrass, and Elmo) from the Premier League, which honestly others teams can only dream of. Then add to that John Goddam Terry. On top of that we have Grealish and a bunch of other highly rated youngsters. Oh wait, we got in even some more future talent like Bree, Bedeau, Onomah and Johnstone. Please do tell me which team are better equipped than us? Obviously it's all on paper of course. We failed on the most important part, that being the manager. Edited November 10, 2017 by vreitti 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted November 11, 2017 Share Posted November 11, 2017 16 hours ago, romavillan said: A horror show end of november going in to december could mean a new manager and some £'s chucked at him to fix it in Jan. Would be desperate measures in desperate times but still, hard to see any other option. We missed the boat on Wagner and Nuno big time. We went for Wagner and he didn't want to leave Huddersfield. Nuno was out of our league. Wolves only got him because of Medez. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted November 11, 2017 Share Posted November 11, 2017 12 hours ago, TRO said: One had far better players than the other though, Dave. In terms of results alone O'Neill has to be given credit. but O'Neill had 4 years and decent funds and didn't have such a poor base to take over from......4 wins in 18 months.i still think his team lacked sophistication. He will be given until the end of the season and the appraisal will be made. Why Is everyone so convinced he will be given until the end of season. Fall apart after this latest loss and he is a goner! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romavillan Posted November 11, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted November 11, 2017 30 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said: We went for Wagner and he didn't want to leave Huddersfield. Nuno was out of our league. Wolves only got him because of Medez. Interesting we went for Wagner, even more interesting that they thought he'd be great and then the thought process went from unproven, young, talented with a vision to, well, Steve Bruce. Anyway, for our promotion charge to get back on track we have some work to do, if Derby or Ipswich win their game in hand we aren't even top 6 as it stands and coming up we have... QPR A Sunderland H Ipswich H Leeds A Millwall H Derby A Sheff Utd H ...before Christmas. In order to call this season a promotion charge I think we need to beat the teams directly competing for promotion. So we'd need to beat Ipswich, Derby and Sheffield Utd and win a couple of the others whilst not getting beaten in that run. If we do that, then we might actually be considered contenders for automatic promotion. I'm not sure we'll finish that run in the top 6 though as it goes. We'd need to improve dramatically and I don't see where that is coming from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted November 11, 2017 Share Posted November 11, 2017 13 hours ago, vreitti said: Why do I what? Think we have by far the best team? Isn't that obvious? We more or less bought the best (performing) players (Hogan, Kodjia, Hourihane, Adomah, RMC and Lansbury) of the league. Sure they didn't all 'work out', but that is more to do with Bruce and/or coaching imho. Add to that all the seasoned pros (Chester, Taylor, Jedinak, Whelan, De Laet Snodgrass, and Elmo) from the Premier League, which honestly others teams can only dream of. Then add to that John Goddam Terry. On top of that we have Grealish and a bunch of other highly rated youngsters. Oh wait, we got in even some more future talent like Bree, Bedeau, Onomah and Johnstone. Please do tell me which team are better equipped than us? Obviously it's all on paper of course. We failed on the most important part, that being the manager. Wolves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted November 11, 2017 Share Posted November 11, 2017 23 hours ago, briny_ear said: It is irrelevant but I'd take him back in a heartbeat. Amazing to think back to the negativity there was about him when he was providing us our only spell of consistently successful football in the past 20 years. Little did we know... It was different times. He was being judged compared to what John Gregory, Brian Little and even further back what Big Ron had achieved in the premier league. Get the feeling club football management was starting to pass him by anyway as Sunderland were looking like they were getting relegated under his watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted November 11, 2017 Share Posted November 11, 2017 13 hours ago, vreitti said: Why do I what? Think we have by far the best team? Isn't that obvious? We more or less bought the best (performing) players (Hogan, Kodjia, Hourihane, Adomah, RMC and Lansbury) of the league. Sure they didn't all 'work out', but that is more to do with Bruce and/or coaching imho. Add to that all the seasoned pros (Chester, Taylor, Jedinak, Whelan, De Laet Snodgrass, and Elmo) from the Premier League, which honestly others teams can only dream of. Then add to that John Goddam Terry. On top of that we have Grealish and a bunch of other highly rated youngsters. Oh wait, we got in even some more future talent like Bree, Bedeau, Onomah and Johnstone. Please do tell me which team are better equipped than us? Obviously it's all on paper of course. We failed on the most important part, that being the manager. I would say Terry/ johnstone/ Kodjia/ are the standout players in our squad.....you will find players in the championship who can compete or eclipse what our other players offer. I am not interested in " on paper" they either do it or they don't. Ours do it inconsistently Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted November 11, 2017 Share Posted November 11, 2017 I can understand Terry being a big miss. We did keep plenty of clean sheets last season though when he wasn't at the club. Get Jedinak back in the team and hopefully he'll fill the void for the next few months. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasshopper Posted November 11, 2017 Share Posted November 11, 2017 58 minutes ago, romavillan said: Interesting we went for Wagner, even more interesting that they thought he'd be great and then the thought process went from unproven, young, talented with a vision to, well, Steve Bruce. in hindsight - a mistake 58 minutes ago, romavillan said: Anyway, for our promotion charge to get back on track we have some work to do, if Derby or Ipswich win their game in hand we aren't even top 6 as it stands and coming up we have... QPR A Sunderland H Ipswich H Leeds A Millwall H Derby A Sheff Utd H ...before Christmas. In order to call this season a promotion charge I think we need to beat the teams directly competing for promotion. So we'd need to beat Ipswich, Derby and Sheffield Utd and win a couple of the others whilst not getting beaten in that run. If we do that, then we might actually be considered contenders for automatic promotion. I'm not sure we'll finish that run in the top 6 though as it goes. We'd need to improve dramatically and I don't see where that is coming from. especially on the back of 4pts from 12pts we simply have to win v Qpr sunderland and millwall (9pts) 4 draws (4pts) v promotion rivals would mean 13/7. We wouldnt gain on our rivals so the games in hand & results would more than likely see us drop to 10/12th. So by the time the draw for the 4th round of the FACup it‘ll be all over for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted November 11, 2017 Share Posted November 11, 2017 1 minute ago, VillaChris said: It was different times. He was being judged compared to what John Gregory, Brian Little and even further back what Big Ron had achieved in the premier league. Get the feeling club football management was starting to pass him by anyway as Sunderland were looking like they were getting relegated under his watch. He was never that good in the transfer market.....we managed to get about half a dozen decent signings our of about 40 he bought. International football, where there are no transfers,is ideal for him. sadly, the ability in the transfer market as Ron Saunders proved is crucial to success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markavfc40 Posted November 11, 2017 Share Posted November 11, 2017 29 minutes ago, TRO said: He was never that good in the transfer market.....we managed to get about half a dozen decent signings our of about 40 he bought. International football, where there are no transfers,is ideal for him. I don't want to tun this into the Mon thread but I think that is a bit harsh. Petrov, Carew, Ash Young, Friedel, Luke Young, Downing, Delph, Milner. I know Collins and Dunne split the fans but I thought they were an excellent partnership under O'Neill. I also thought Reo Coker did ok, Knight at 3.5 mill did ok, Cuellar we possibly over paid for but he rarely let us down, then the likes Maloney for 1 mill made a contribution and Guzan for 0.5 mill had spells of looking good before his confidence went awol. I would agree that O'Neill is someone who if you can give him half decent tools will get the best out of them so is in that regard suited to international management and if you wanted someone to come into a club and make a quick impact and get a bounce he is also ideal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romavillan Posted November 11, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted November 11, 2017 2 hours ago, Grasshopper said: in hindsight - a mistake especially on the back of 4pts from 12pts we simply have to win v Qpr sunderland and millwall (9pts) 4 draws (4pts) v promotion rivals would mean 13/7. We wouldnt gain on our rivals so the games in hand & results would more than likely see us drop to 10/12th. So by the time the draw for the 4th round of the FACup it‘ll be all over for us. 13 from 7 would be treading water pretty much, we'd be 6th or 7th after that run in that case. If by the time we've played half a season we're still only occasionally playing decent football and are still 7+ points adrift of second then we won't be going up without winning the playoffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasshopper Posted November 11, 2017 Share Posted November 11, 2017 18 minutes ago, romavillan said: 13 from 7 would be treading water pretty much, we'd be 6th or 7th after that run in that case. If by the time we've played half a season we're still only occasionally playing decent football and are still 7+ points adrift of second then we won't be going up without winning the playoffs. yes but I can only see that 7pt gap increasing. We simply must go on an extended run of wins with an odd defeat or draw just to catch up then continue a winning run (with the odd draw/loss) to create some headroom if we do another 6/12pts mini bad run till the end of the season. The margin for error - and I dont mean 1 loss after 6 wins - is minimal or we go 9/12 continually till seasons end slowly creeping up the table either way that is possible, I just cant see beuce achieving it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasshopper Posted November 11, 2017 Share Posted November 11, 2017 Steve Beuce, maybe he can do it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted November 11, 2017 Share Posted November 11, 2017 4 hours ago, markavfc40 said: I don't want to tun this into the Mon thread but I think that is a bit harsh. Petrov, Carew, Ash Young, Friedel, Luke Young, Downing, Delph, Milner. I know Collins and Dunne split the fans but I thought they were an excellent partnership under O'Neill. I also thought Reo Coker did ok, Knight at 3.5 mill did ok, Cuellar we possibly over paid for but he rarely let us down, then the likes Maloney for 1 mill made a contribution and Guzan for 0.5 mill had spells of looking good before his confidence went awol. I would agree that O'Neill is someone who if you can give him half decent tools will get the best out of them so is in that regard suited to international management and if you wanted someone to come into a club and make a quick impact and get a bounce he is also ideal. Just buying British massively inflates the wage bill as we found out to a cost. I agree a lot of them did their best but there's no way you can see NRC at 8m was value for money. After his first season we started him out of position at RB, frequently, then he went to the bench and eventually left on a free. Same for Cuellar. Big reason why no top 4 club ever took him is he was allergic to sign players from abroad and that hurt us aswell. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted November 11, 2017 Share Posted November 11, 2017 3 hours ago, romavillan said: 13 from 7 would be treading water pretty much, we'd be 6th or 7th after that run in that case. If by the time we've played half a season we're still only occasionally playing decent football and are still 7+ points adrift of second then we won't be going up without winning the playoffs. Which we won't be doing given how we play against the top 6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AntrimBlack Posted November 11, 2017 Share Posted November 11, 2017 2 minutes ago, Keyblade said: Which we won't be doing given how we play against the top 6. Yes. I would have no confidence that we would get through the playoffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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