Scott Hogan

[Stevo985]

1 minute ago, TrentVilla said:

Currently I think there is reason to think the failing isn’t entirely on him.

Which is fair enough, but like I said this doesn't seem to be a luxury that is afforded to many, if any, of our other players. Most of whom have actually performed for Villa at some point.

[TrentVilla]

46 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

Which is fair enough, but like I said this doesn't seem to be a luxury that is afforded to many, if any, of our other players. Most of whom have actually performed for Villa at some point.

I guess that is true with some fans granted. Personally I don't approach it that way, perhaps because I was so passionately against Bruce's management for so long I don't know.

I think it was yesterday I posted in the Grealish thread that players form over the start of this season was now largely irrelevant and that players should be judged fresh under Smith. Now that doesn't apply universally, Jedinak at CB for instance I wouldn't want to give a clean slate too for instance. It wouldn't also really apply to Hutton or Whelan, Lansbury also to a degree as I saw a lot of him at Forest and never much rated him although he is better than we've seen.

Anyway, as always I enjoy kicking these things around with you and I do respect your view even when I don't agree because you are level with it, for instance you credit Hogan on work rate. Some of the criticism I've seen of him I think frankly has been utter tosh, my only real bone of contention was with your summary of his career/purple patch and what I think at least is the justification for the faith some of us have he will come good and for treating him differently to a degree with others.

Lets hope he does come good as if he does he will make a big difference but more importantly it will be because Smith has been successful in embedding his style of play here.

[villan-scott]

I rate Hogan and hope he can rediscover the form that saw us fork out a large transfer fee for him. 

What I haven’t seen mentioned too often in this thread is the 2 very serious knee injuries he has suffered while at Brentford, and he still came back with a good goals to game ratio. 

My view is that the only poor form in his career to date is while here. That is a culmination of things from the manager, the system, not getting a run of games, and moving to a much bigger club. 

Lets hope we get to see the old Hogan for the remainder of this season. 

[TRO]

I think its an interesting debate....is it the manager or is it the player?.....all will be revealed.

wished I knew the answer....but in Scott Hogans case, I guess we will soon be able to form a stronger opinion.

Its also interesting to me how some players , play for several managers and their form remains consistent and the change has little impact on their game and others are up and down like a fiddlers elbow.

I accept that some managers do not play to the strengths of the individual player and that can cause issues, but equally, I struggle to use that as a cop out for failing to implement basic things, that all Pro footballers should be able to master.

Managers play a huge part in a players success, but some things( IMO) they have to take charge of themselves.

Edited October 19, 2018 by TRO

[sne]

I think we grossly overpaid for him.

And I also think he hasn't been played to his strengths which has effected his performances and his confidence.

A £12m or whatever player should be able to do much more than he has even if he isn't played to his strengths, but as mentioned he isn't a £12m player when looking at ability. 

[TrentVilla]

43 minutes ago, TRO said:

Its also interesting to me how some players , play for several managers and their form remains consistent and the change has little impact on their game and others are up and down like a fiddlers elbow.

I accept that some managers do not play to the strengths of the individual player and that can cause issues, but equally, I struggle to use that as a cop out for failing to implement basic things, that all Pro footballers should be able to master.

Managers play a huge part in a players success, but some things( IMO) they have to take charge of themselves.

They do but then how many managers spend £12m on a striker seemingly without any idea what their strengths are or the ability or willingness to play to them? It was a ridiculous signing by Bruce.

What basic things has Hogan failed to master?

When we signed Carew we played to his strengths, when we signed Benteke we played to his strengths. Hogan like Baros we have done anything but and then we wonder why players that score goals elsewhere suddenly don’t? (Let’s not debate Baros)

I find it an odd contradiction that people don’t expect big target men to be making runs in behind, yet expect players who’s game is all about that to be able to effective with balls lumped forward, crosses and painfully slow approach play.

[Zatman]

47 minutes ago, sne said:

I think we grossly overpaid for him.

And I also think he hasn't been played to his strengths which has effected his performances and his confidence.

A £12m or whatever player should be able to do much more than he has even if he isn't played to his strengths, but as mentioned he isn't a £12m player when looking at ability. 

Might have overpaid but I think West Ham had same fee agreed on the same day but pulled the plug at last minute

[sne]

1 minute ago, Zatman said:

Might have overpaid but I think West Ham had same fee agreed on the same day but pulled the plug at last minute

I know, probably the reason we did end up paying that much. Wonder if they intended to use him as like for like replacement for Andy Carroll? 

Club acted like lottery winners that first season under Xia. Pissing money away.

[Zatman]

Just now, sne said:

I know, probably the reason we did end up paying that much. Wonder if they intended to use him as like for like replacement for Andy Carroll? 

Club acted like lottery winners that first season under Xia. Pissing money away.

Since 2006 we have been pissing money away on all sorts of crap players

 

[TRO]

36 minutes ago, TrentVilla said:

They do but then how many managers spend £12m on a striker seemingly without any idea what their strengths are or the ability or willingness to play to them? It was a ridiculous signing by Bruce.

What basic things has Hogan failed to master?

When we signed Carew we played to his strengths, when we signed Benteke we played to his strengths. Hogan like Baros we have done anything but and then we wonder why players that score goals elsewhere suddenly don’t? (Let’s not debate Baros)

I find it an odd contradiction that people don’t expect big target men to be making runs in behind, yet expect players who’s game is all about that to be able to effective with balls lumped forward, crosses and painfully slow approach play.

• First touch is inconsistent
• ball retention is unconvincing
• Running off the ball lacks imagination.
• Holding opposition players off is lightweight.
• No improvisation used like a back heel, little invention.
• No pulling defenders around, through slick movement.

for 12 mill I would expect a bit of that from a striker.....But we will see if Dean Smith can get a better tune out of him.....I sincerely hope so.

I have purposely avoided the debate about why, he has not been successful.....because I don't know and it would be pure speculation.

I accept the Bruce criticism in this, but now we will possibly see to what degree.

 

 

[bobzy]

4 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

Apologies, a typo. I meant "other" players. I've corrected it.

Go into the Kodjia thread and he gets slaughtered for a couple of poor performances this season.

He's been playing under Steve Bruce too who apparently is the main reason all our players are crap.
Same with Abraham who has done more in his handful of games here than Hogan has in 2 years.

Yet Hogan gets almost totally excused by most because Steve Bruce and because wrong system and because Brentford.

So it irks me when players like Kodjia, who has been one of our better players since relegation to the Championship gets loads of shit for playing poorly. And Scott Hogan, who has been toilet in a Villa shirt gets a load of pity because he was good for 30 games a few years ago.

It's interesting that you're banging on about how shit Scott Hogan is when I reckon his goal record over his last 30 games for Aston Villa is the same as Kodjia's last 30 games, despite Kodjia being a better player.  Why does Kodjia get totally excused when Hogan doesn't?  Is it because he was good for 30 games for us a couple of years ago?

Funny old game.

[Stevo985]

1 hour ago, bobzy said:

It's interesting that you're banging on about how shit Scott Hogan is when I reckon his goal record over his last 30 games for Aston Villa is the same as Kodjia's last 30 games, despite Kodjia being a better player.  Why does Kodjia get totally excused when Hogan doesn't?  Is it because he was good for 30 games for us a couple of years ago?

Funny old game.

Who's excusing Kodjia?

[sir_gary_cahill]

4 hours ago, bobzy said:

It's interesting that you're banging on about how shit Scott Hogan is when I reckon his goal record over his last 30 games for Aston Villa is the same as Kodjia's last 30 games, despite Kodjia being a better player.  Why does Kodjia get totally excused when Hogan doesn't?  Is it because he was good for 30 games for us a couple of years ago?

Funny old game.

I think you are correct 

[sir_gary_cahill]

4 hours ago, Zatman said:

Since 2006 we have been pissing money away on all sorts of crap players

 

Ashley Young, James Milner, Brad Friedel, John Carew say hi

[Zatman]

19 minutes ago, sir_gary_cahill said:

Ashley Young, James Milner, Brad Friedel, John Carew say hi

4 players. We probably signed 100 im that time

[sir_gary_cahill]

1 minute ago, Zatman said:

4 players. We probably signed 100 im that time

Young was £9.5m, Milner was £12m, Carew was a swap with Baros, Friedel was £2.5m which equates to £24m, hardly £100m, where did you get that figure from?

[weedman]

14 minutes ago, sir_gary_cahill said:

Young was £9.5m, Milner was £12m, Carew was a swap with Baros, Friedel was £2.5m which equates to £24m, hardly £100m, where did you get that figure from?

Think he was saying we probably signed 100 players in that time, and to only cite 4 successes is poor, rather than saying those 4 players cost £100m

[sir_gary_cahill]

8 minutes ago, weedman said:

Think he was saying we probably signed 100 players in that time, and to only cite 4 successes is poor, rather than saying those 4 players cost £100m

Oh yes I see, apologies Zatman

[DCJonah]

5 hours ago, bobzy said:

It's interesting that you're banging on about how shit Scott Hogan is when I reckon his goal record over his last 30 games for Aston Villa is the same as Kodjia's last 30 games, despite Kodjia being a better player.  Why does Kodjia get totally excused when Hogan doesn't?  Is it because he was good for 30 games for us a couple of years ago?

Funny old game.

Who totally excused kodjia?

There were plenty who actually wanted to sell him after we signed hogan and he consistently gets criticised for his performances. 

[DCJonah]

5 hours ago, TRO said:

• First touch is inconsistent
• ball retention is unconvincing
• Running off the ball lacks imagination.
• Holding opposition players off is lightweight.
• No improvisation used like a back heel, little invention.
• No pulling defenders around, through slick movement.

for 12 mill I would expect a bit of that from a striker.....But we will see if Dean Smith can get a better tune out of him.....I sincerely hope so.

I have purposely avoided the debate about why, he has not been successful.....because I don't know and it would be pure speculation.

I accept the Bruce criticism in this, but now we will possibly see to what degree.

 

 

His failure to get involved in games and his passing is right up there with the worst villa strikers.