Steve Bruce

[AJ]

1 minute ago, Grasshopper said:

Thats for sure

dont hold your breath

There weee enough Managers in this division alone who got lesser players/squads to outfootball us.

So there IS without doubt a more expansive manager out there.

So, someone better than Steve Bruce, who is willing to take up this poison chalice after sacking yet another manager in a short time? Someone experienced enough with a lot of clever ideas, but stupid enough to come here? Hmmm...Nope. Cant think of anyone that fits that description.

[Jareth]

8 hours ago, turnbull said:

And still we rumble on and on and on.....................

Well with all that free time he's got these days I think in finding things to do Delph has been very creative there.

Edited April 11, 2017 by Jareth

[markavfc40]

6 hours ago, Grasshopper said:

There weee enough Managers in this division alone who got lesser players/squads to outfootball us.

So there IS without doubt a more expansive manager out there.

That is such a small sample though isn’t it. Brentford outplayed us a couple of months ago but I wouldn’t therefore want Dean Smith as our manager based on that.

Bottom line is getting out of this division next season and I don’t know a manager who is better qualified to do that than the one we have currently. That isn’t to say there aren’t managers that wouldn’t have us playing prettier football as there undoubtedly are. We don’t need pretty football though we need promotion.

I also think managing our club does come with unique challenges. It comes with an expectation that you don’t get at 90% of the clubs in this division. An expectation that I think a lot of less experienced managers would potentially struggle with. An expectation that also I think a lot of players have struggled to carry.

That run we had in January/February would have crushed a lot of managers. Bruce never blinked for a second, never wavered in his belief that we would turn it around and in fairness to him we came through it with flying colours to now be on a run of 1 defeat in 9 including 7 wins. Whilst that poor run can’t be brushed under the carpet if you are going to use it as a stick to beat him with then you have to be prepared to acknowledge that to turn it around the way he has is some going.

Bruce is totally aware that we have to get promotion next season and he has shown four times he knows what it takes to achieve that. To change manager now would be madness. It would almost certainly lead to another overhaul of the squad, another bedding in period and quite possibly another season of transition. I don’t think for a second it will have even crossed Xia and Wyness’s minds to make another change and certainly not for a punt on a manager who has had relative success at much smaller clubs, see Rowett, Wagner etc., but have zero promotions on their CV. For where we are now it is the right move to back a guy with the proven pedigree to achieve our primary goal at present and to go with stability for the first time in years. Come August we will have a squad that will have the experiences of this season behind them and have had a full pre season together being led by a manager that knows exactly what it takes to get promotion. All that may not come with sexy football but I believe it offers our best chance of hitting the ground running next season and ultimately getting out of this division.

[striker]

Ball retention has been as poor under Bruce as it has been with most recent Villa managers. So what's causing it?

Is it a lack of movement around the player in possession in which case it has been a series of poor coaching at fault or can it be blamed on players simply not being good enough ability wise or tough enough mentally to play for Aston Villa.

If it's the latter then Villa's recent managers must be at least partly to blame for signing those players in the first place but if you look at Villa's squad now, on paper, Villa should be retaining the ball better than they are.

I haven't seen Villa's last two or three games but reading reports and opinions on here from those that have attended those games Villa have started well, playing good football and creating chances but reverting to poor possession as the game progresses. That at least suggests that the current Villa team have it in them to retain possession better but can't yet do it for a sustained period.

That to me smacks of a lack of confidence leading to anxiety when opposition teams start to press and attack Villa. That is natural for a newly built team constructed from the ashes of such a bad relegation.

Next season I don't expect any Steve Bruce team to continually play free flowing attacking football but having already identified the problem, I do think ball retention will improve under Bruce when the team has had more time to knit together.

[romavillan]

22 minutes ago, striker said:

Ball retention has been as poor under Bruce as it has been with most recent Villa managers. So what's causing it?

Is it a lack of movement around the player in possession in which case it has been a series of poor coaching at fault or can it be blamed on players simply not being good enough ability wise or tough enough mentally to play for Aston Villa.

If it's the latter then Villa's recent managers must be at least partly to blame for signing those players in the first place but if you look at Villa's squad now, on paper, Villa should be retaining the ball better than they are.

I haven't seen Villa's last two or three games but reading reports and opinions on here from those that have attended those games Villa have started well, playing good football and creating chances but reverting to poor possession as the game progresses. That at least suggests that the current Villa team have it in them to retain possession better but can't yet do it for a sustained period.

That to me smacks of a lack of confidence leading to anxiety when opposition teams start to press and attack Villa. That is natural for a newly built team constructed from the ashes of such a bad relegation.

Next season I don't expect any Steve Bruce team to continually play free flowing attacking football but having already identified the problem, I do think ball retention will improve under Bruce when the team has had more time to knit together.

Looking at ex-players in other teams would support the idea that the coaching is poor IMO. They can do it elsewhere but since before MON we have been diabolical at giving the player ont he ball options and being static. MON's forte of the quick and dangerous break was rehearsed down to a fine art and it got us 3 6th spots on the trot, but there was never any plan B and no way to relieve pressure, against a good team with their tails up it was bakcs to the wall and then wait for a chance to break.

We have not been a good footballing side for a very long time, Big Ron, Little and Gregory I'd say had us playing the nicest stuff I can remember well. I'm too young to remember Saunders' villa, how they played anyway, I knew the results but I was too young to go down the ground. The nervousness I think is a big part of it, but we don't seem to have a pattern of play with the ball that has become automatic, second nature, so even a player having a bad day just by going through the motions would be automatically giving options, or at least pre-prepared runs to move the opposition about etc. So often over the last 10 years or so with the ball we are completely static, the player on the ball has no-one to pass to and things get dire really fast.

Bruce played in a very good united side, that whilst it wasn't exactly Guardiola, they knew how to manage the game and keep the ball when required, they could create a goal passing out from the back etc. too. So you'd think he knows a thing or two about it, seems stopping us giving away 2 goals every week was the first focus, now let's see what progress can be made in the other two thirds of the pitch. Right now let's face it, even with the great results, we've played shit.

[Adam2003]

Just to make clear that this post isn't a criticism of our fans (as I kind of took it at the time) but I guess a reflection of the expectation we have at this club...

Per the post above, I asked a former PL player I met (a striker from a couple of average teams) why it was that we could change everything we have over multiple years and still struggle with the same issues. He said as an opposition player you would always know Villa players would be nervous if things weren't going well because of the expectation of the crowd. He said as a smaller team (and I guess he was playing against us in MON days so we were top six) your team talk at VP would always be "they have underachieved for so long for what this club should be doing, so just stop them for 15 minutes and their confidence will go, then the fans will turn, then heads will drop further." 

He said the only thing that he sees changing it is, paradoxically, success - he said "the equivalent of the call bouncing in off someone's arse to end a dry spell". I wonder if winning the Cup final a couple of years ago under Sherwood would have done it but now I do kind of think we just need to grind out a season of wins under someone like Bruce to get the club used to winning games again before we start thinking bigger. His view was certainly that. 

Anyway don't post much but just thought I'd share that.

 

 

[blandy]

15 minutes ago, Adam2003 said:

"they have underachieved for so long for what this club should be doing, so just stop them for 15 minutes and their confidence will go, then the fans will turn, then heads will drop further." 

He said the only thing that he sees changing it is, paradoxically, success

That's partly got some merit. Though it does rather underplay the issue of players who lose confidence after 15 minutes - I mean if they're so mentally weak and needy as he's implying, it's not the people in the stands that are the problem. Or to put it another way "player blames fans for performance"

He's right about some success being the key to changing things. When any set of fans has been let down by players over a period of time, they will get antsy. I think we've actually been (till last season) more patient than we had any right to be. Last season most of the players were a disgrace. 

Arsenal's fans last night were giving their players and manager abuse, and they're in the top 6 and multiple FA Cup winners etc.... 

 

[Eastie]

Too much made of ball retention in football these days - it's goals that count not possession .

last night palace beat Arsenal 3-0 having had only 28% possession - give me this Bruce style anyday ahead of the tippy tappy  stuff in our own half that Lambert tried .

Edited April 11, 2017 by Eastie

[Grasshopper]

Mark, lots of respect for your opinion and they way you articulate it. But a theory without substance isnt always going to be enough

2 hours ago, markavfc40 said:

That is such a small sample though isn’t it. Brentford outplayed us a couple of months ago but I wouldn’t therefore want Dean Smith as our manager based on that.  

I would argue here that DS is either achieving at least and overachieving at most.

Bruce is definately underachieving imho

2 hours ago, markavfc40 said:

Bottom line is getting out of this division next season and I don’t know a manager who is better qualified to do that than the one we have currently. 

I dont either, but far too much reliance is put on the fact that Bruce did it 4 times. Without considering how those achievements are tangiable to our situation in regards to achieving promotion within our framework of a club. 

2 hours ago, markavfc40 said:

 

That isn’t to say there aren’t managers that wouldn’t have us playing prettier football as there undoubtedly are. We don’t need pretty football though we need promotion.  

well were's the pretty football? not at AVFC

where's the promotion? not at AVFC either

2 hours ago, markavfc40 said:

I also think managing our club does come with unique challenges. It comes with an expectation that you don’t get at 90% of the clubs in this division. An expectation that I think a lot of less experienced managers would potentially struggle with. An expectation that also I think a lot of players have struggled to carry.

That run we had in January/February would have crushed a lot of managers. Bruce never blinked for a second, never wavered in his belief that we would turn it around  

Sorry, but I must beg to differ here.

I'm not sure which game it was (v Toon Barnsley or Ipswich) but I saw a postmatch interview where he was definately slurring, talking extremely slow and deliberate and looked to me either broken or on valium.

We beat a toothless/useless Derby (attacking wise) thereafter with a diabolical display of football.

This way of playing will ALWAYS get found out/have its limitation. But that who Bruce is and what he does. I am more than concerned about this, so thats why I want him out.

2 hours ago, markavfc40 said:

 in fairness to him we came through it with flying colours to now be on a run of 1 defeat in 9 including 7 wins. Whilst that poor run can’t be brushed under the carpet if you are going to use it as a stick to beat him with then you have to be prepared to acknowledge that to turn it around the way he has is some going.  

I'll hang my colour to the nast that says

Kodjia turned it round for us along with the return of Jedi, Chester/Baker and a few injuries forcing his hand

2 hours ago, markavfc40 said:

Bruce is totally aware that we have to get promotion next season and he has shown four times he knows what it takes to achieve that.  

I'm open for the truth here (facts) was that 4 titles? a combination of 1st's & 2nd's?

or were playoff's required?

IMHO I think there should be NO chances taken next year on Promotion. 1st or 2nd is a must for me.

2 hours ago, markavfc40 said:

To change manager now would be madness.  

Wrong, in the fact that stating that means.

Sticking is right

sacking is wrong

NOBODy can claim that

2 hours ago, markavfc40 said:

It would almost certainly lead to another overhaul of the squad, another bedding in period and quite possibly another season of transition. I don’t think for a second it will have even crossed Xia and Wyness’s minds to make another change and certainly not for a punt on a manager who has had relative success at much smaller clubs, see Rowett, Wagner etc., but have zero promotions on their CV. For where we are now it is the right move to back a guy with the proven pedigree to achieve our primary goal at present and to go with stability for the first time in years. Come August we will have a squad that will have the experiences of this season behind them and have had a full pre season together being led by a manager that knows exactly what it takes to get promotion. All that may not come with sexy football but I believe it offers our best chance of hitting the ground running next season and ultimately getting out of this division.

I'm not an addict for Sexy/Pretty football.

I want AVFC to dominate defence, midfield and attack creating as many chances as we need to be sure of winning the games and giving the opposition the least amount if chance to beat or draw with us home or away.

That would get us promotion

not sticking with what's been on show, upheavals if squads, major surgery and the like.

A manager to take the challenge on and do it with no doubt, not hoping to be scraping through backs to the walls stuff.

[bobzy]

10 minutes ago, Grasshopper said:

But a theory without substance isnt always going to be enough...

...This way of playing will ALWAYS get found out/have its limitation. But that who Bruce is and what he does. I am more than concerned about this, so thats why I want him out.

Ahhhh... so that's why after having several games in the Championship under Steve Bruce, our side eventually got "found out" and won 7 out of 8 games.

 

Something about a theory without substance?

Edited April 11, 2017 by bobzy

[BOF]

4 minutes ago, bobzy said:

Ahhhh... so that's why after having several games in the Championship under Steve Bruce, our side eventually got "found out" and won 7 out of 8 games.

Something about a theory without substance?

Don't forget the 7 clean sheets.

[Grasshopper]

6 minutes ago, bobzy said:

Ahhhh... so that's why after having several games in the Championship under Steve Bruce, our side eventually got "found out" and won 7 out of 8 games.

 

Something about a theory without substance?

preceeded by 7 losses in 8 followed by a draw v Burton once our "get out of jail card" went off.

Just shout louder, then more people will hear you.

[Grasshopper]

3 minutes ago, BOF said:

Don't forget the 7 clean sheets.

and the non clean sheets before and after?

1 cancels out the other so its quits but we're still not 6th

however, if you just state the good and not the bad, you are just being one sided.

[BOF]

2 minutes ago, Grasshopper said:

and the non clean sheets before and after?

1 cancels out the other so its quits but we're still not 6th

however, if you just state the good and not the bad, you are just being one sided.

I'm being one-sided? Why do you find it so difficult to realise that we are improving?  The curve is upwards.  You talk about blind.

[Grasshopper]

1 minute ago, BOF said:

I'm being one-sided? Why do you find it so difficult to realise that we are improving?  The curve is upwards.  You talk about blind.

sorry but whatever improvement is not enough for me imho

and yes you are being onesided when you quote snapshot facts that can be negated

[BOF]

Just now, Grasshopper said:

sorry but whatever improvement is not enough for me imho

and yes you are being onesided when you quote snapshot facts that can be negated

You talk about snapshot facts.  You talk about midtable under Bruce which you know damn well includes di Matteo's start.  I've not seen you acknowledge the fact Bruce's results over HIS season have been playoff form.  You then curiously put every bit as much emphasis on results that happened months ago as you do on the results that have been happening recently because they fit your stance, quite apart from the fact those bad results STILL result in playoff form over the course of Bruce's season.  Your argument completely lacks reason and logic.  You talk about blind.  You talk about theories without substance.  Well you should know!

[blandy]

45 minutes ago, Grasshopper said:

far too much reliance is put on the fact that Bruce did it 4 times. Without considering how those achievements are tangiable to our situation in regards to achieving promotion within our framework of a club. 

That's not a sustainable claim to make - that people "aren't considering" how Bruce's history of getting promoted is applicable to our situation. I'd say the opposite is true and has been demonstrated many times in this thread - people have been talking about  how they've looked at his teams and record and accept the football style played has been a bit dull and functional and while that works in the Football League, if you have a touch of quality (e.g. Jimmy Danger) and are solid, then you've a good chance, but that style and record in the Prem is much less successful and he'd probably not last long if we get up.

45 minutes ago, Grasshopper said:

Kodjia turned it round for us along with the return of Jedi, Chester/Baker and a few injuries forcing his hand

Well, yes. Bruce picked the team, him and Calderwood did the training and tactics - you can't slate the manager for losing when players are away if you're not going to give him credit when the team wins and players are available.

I'm a sceptical of SB, didn't want him as manager, don't really get anything from watching the games the way the team plays, and am dubious about him getting us up. BUT, the flip side to that  is that I'm a fan who knows nothing, except that replacing a manager who is doing well in terms of results, who also has a record of achievement in this league, who is trusted by the players, owner, Execs and the vast majority of fans, following a period of massive crapness and instability is (as Mark said) "Mental".

We've got to give the bloke a decent chance to succeed.  

[Grasshopper]

A very recent result put paid to all that this season.

I dont want the club to take the risk.

New manager please

[Grasshopper]

This is, regardless of opinions, facts, stats, past, good runs,  bad runs, pro-anti-football, my point

2 minutes ago, blandy said:

We've got to give the bloke a decent chance to succeed.  

I think he has had his chance.

[Lerner's Driver]

6 minutes ago, Grasshopper said:

This is, regardless of opinions, facts, stats, past, good runs,  bad runs, pro-anti-football, my point

I think he has had his chance.

Hey, do you remember a while back when we were in the bad run and you first clogged up the board with your incessant repetition and then you held off a bit cos you got the message that reading your posts had probably become hard work?

You're entering that territory again.