Steve Bruce

[DCJonah]

5 hours ago, TRO said:

So if Pepe or Jurgen don't win the league, they have failed?

seems a bít narrow minded to me.

I accept that managers are hired to TRY and win the league or promotion, but as there are no guarantee's in football, it seems a bit harsh to me, to describe it as you did.

Anyway....Dean is giving us a better brand of football, so we are all happy.....just hope he can get us over the line.....but if he doesn't i hope we stick with him, to try further.

Possibly yes. If that's the job they are hired to do. 

Bruce took over an imbalanced squad sitting in the bottom half of the league and 2 years later, after wasting any financial advantage we had, put us back in the same situation, if not worse. 

That is complete failure in my opinion

[TRO]

31 minutes ago, villa4europe said:

Not sure what klopp has to do with Bruce stabilising us with loans and unsustainable signings of old players on good wages ignoring our youth team before blowing the playoff final and destabilising us all the while playing shit football

Bruce failed make no doubt about it

If we had won the playoffs then the way he tried to get us up would be exposed for what it was

 

Respectfully, i think you are missing the original point....it was a debate relating to opinions on "what constitutes failure", relating to an opinion on Steve Bruce.....so either Pepe or Jurgen has to fail according to the (IMO) narrow minded view, they are allegedly hired to Win and Win only else its failure....if I have read the insinuations right.

You are right....It was probably a blessing disguise, we didn't go up, but hindsight is an exact science.

Personally, I much prefer to watch the football that Dean Smith presides over, but equally that does not preclude me from thinking that Steve Bruce stabilised us from leaking goals at will.....He failed to get us up, but In my opinion, did do other good things of which, I am sure Dean Smith would be praiseworthy of......After all Vic Crowe didn't achieve much in some fans eyes, I prefer to think he Left Ron with some good kids, just maturing.....Graham Taylor FAILED to win the League, but in my eyes was a great manager, first time around....and second was still a success for me.

A lot depends on the view a person takes.....rarely is everything all ****

[TRO]

38 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

Possibly yes. If that's the job they are hired to do. 

Bruce took over an imbalanced squad sitting in the bottom half of the league and 2 years later, after wasting any financial advantage we had, put us back in the same situation, if not worse. 

That is complete failure in my opinion

Despite the obviousness of your claim...He did fail to get us up by 2 goals....If that's failure to you so be it.....that does not mean I want him back.

I am not going to go through a whole host of stats, but  in the main we wasted c25 million on 2 players...McCormack & Hogan....Bruce was responsible as I understand for Hogan Alone,unless you want to include the handling of McCormack, which i have sympathy with the manager.... so In terms of Transfer fee's I don't see how a case of extravagance can be levelled at him, wages is speculative, invariably they get distorted by over zealous journalists.

Look ,I am Happy with how things have turned out....I just don't think he is as bad as you make out...but so what,now.

In terms of Money, Wages, Fee's, Who signed who.....we could argue about that all day long, who really knows for sure.

General comment.....How many managers leave clubs and say I had no involvement in that player or this, so what do we really know, one way or the other.....unless we are flies on the wall we are all just speculating and choosing an opinion.

I think he went at the right time for all concerned and it was the right decision.

Ps The Prime Minister was Hired to deliver Brexit......but we all know what supposed to happen and what does in reality.

Edited April 9, 2019 by TRO

[Keyblade]

It's hard to look back on his tenure fondly when he feels aggrieved and acts like he was working miracles under a paltry budget as opposed to the reality which was that he failed to get the most expensively assembled squad (mostly by him) in Championship history promoted despite having 2 years to do it.

That's without getting into the lasting damage this attempt has left on Aston Villa that would have been completely debilitating if we weren't lucky with the owners we now have. A little humility and responsibility would have went a long way, but instead he's bitter and vindictive. So **** him tbh.

[TRO]

21 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

It's hard to look back on his tenure fondly when he feels aggrieved and acts like he was working miracles under a paltry budget as opposed to the reality which was that he failed to get the most expensively assembled squad (mostly by him) in Championship history promoted despite having 2 years to do it.

That's without getting into the lasting damage this attempt has left on Aston Villa that would have been completely debilitating if we weren't lucky with the owners we now have. A little humility and responsibility would have went a long way, but instead he's bitter and vindictive. So **** him tbh.

I don't think he wanted to lose his job, so that could actually be to his credit as opposed to a sleight....I think he was actually Fond of us and for sure he wasn't without mistakes, that's obvious.

I genuinely would like to know what money he spent, because it didn't seem to me to be the extravagance some fans claim.....unless they are referring to wages, which I have no idea on on that, who does really.

Wolves have spent a lot in order to get up.....Norwich have built a promotion team out of Free Transfers.....such diverse approaches, so who is right and who is wrong.

On the Humility, for sure we can all use bucket loads of that, but when you are attacked it can be hard not to respond and defend yourself, so maybe, just maybe, when a cabbage is thrown at you or the like is it surprising you respond with venom, maybe Gandhi may have handled it better.

Look, I am not going to change folks views....If they hate him, fair do's......I don't and I will always be grateful to him for saving us from the week to week humiliation of conceding stupid goals, that No one could seem to stop.....small mercies I guess.

but I genuinely fail to see all this money he is supposed to have he spent, unless it was John Terry's wages that everyone seemed pleased about ( the injury never helped)perhaps you can enlighten me.

If you are comparing it with what Norwich have done on free's.....then I have to concede.

wish we could.

 

Edited April 9, 2019 by TRO

[Zatman]

Going round in circles but Grabban, Snoddy, Terry, Lansbury, Bolasie are or were all on big wages here. Hogan probably as well due to the transfer fee

[sne]

Of course wages are included in what we/he spent. Why wouldn't they be?

You just have to look at our financial reports from the previous years to see how much more we've spent compared to other clubs in this (and most other leagues)

We've had a PL budget while in the Championship. Last season we spend about £73m on wages while Fulham who were second behind us in that list spent £53m, Wolves £51m and the rest of the clubs below £50m all the way down to Burton who spent £10m.

And just as the people who "hate" him are not going to change their views, nor are the ones who "love" him.

Edited April 9, 2019 by sne

[DCJonah]

16 minutes ago, TRO said:

Despite the obviousness of your claim...He did fail to get us up by 2 goals....If that's failure to you so be it.....that does not mean I want him back.

I am not going to go through a whole host of stats, but  in the main we wasted c25 million on 2 players...McCormack & Hogan....Bruce was responsible as I understand for Hogan Alone,unless you want to include the handling of McCormack, which i have sympathy with the manager.... so In terms of Transfer fee's I don't see how a case of extravagance can be levelled at him, wages is speculative, invariably they get distorted by over zealous journalists.

Look ,I am Happy with how things have turned out....I just don't think he is as bad as you make out...but so what,now.

In terms of Money, Wages, Fee's, Who signed who.....we could argue about that all day long, who really knows for sure.

General comment.....How many mangers leave clubs and say I had no involvement in that player or this, so what do we really know, one way or the other.....unless we are flies on the wall we are all just speculating and choosing an opinion.

I think he went at the right time for all concerned and it was the right decision.

Ps The Prime Minister was Hired to deliver Brexit......but we all know what supposed to happen and what does in reality.

Doesn't matter how close he came. The reason he left us in such a mess was because any success he had was built on nothing. 

You can defend his finances if you want but utter madness in my opinion

[Jimzk5]

The spending we did under Bruce was atrocious as it was under Di matteo, you fancy tsihbola? Here's 5million, mccomack?, here's 10 million. 

Then we get Bruce

Hogan, great goalscorer in a Brentford side that passes the ball, I want him for 12 million pounds

Lansbury - ill have him for 3 million

Bjarnnason - runs around a lot, how does 2 million sound.

He filled our squad with a load of layers he had no idea how to utilise or play. 

And then we spent a fortune on sacking him and his staff. 

 

 

[TRO]

Well....

• Grabban has gone to Forest, doubt if he is on less and was on Loan with us.....Forest have paid a fee, something we avoided, are they better placed financially than us?
• Snoddy was at Hull before He went to West Ham, hardly beyond our reach on loan, I would have thought.
• Lansbury was at Forest too, hardly a trophy signing, was just supposed to be a bit better than what we had....was that such an avaricious move?
• Bolasie another loan, that everyone was happy with, even Dean couldn't get any consistency out of ( it happens)....The Mighty Middlesbrough was well miffed they missed out, so they was prepared to match us.
• Terry -Free Transfer, was an exception and who was going to turn that down.....I am still glad we did that.....you could actually put that down to his credit, if you would be so bold.
• Hogan was the only transfer fee, he ****ed up on....and I get to read in many posts, all managers make mistakes.

I can only presume from all that you are referring to wages....I have no idea what they earn and I have no idea what the rest of the division is earning...suspecting there are a few horror stories there too.

like you quite rightly say going around in circles.

just thank yourself lucky you are free of him.....and we have a manager who undoubtedly entertains us.

[PaulC]

That's it. built on expensive loan signings. He came close but not close enough. We have already seen enough under the current manager to see that there has been an improvement in our style of play so even if we don't go up this season I would back him to do it next season.

[TRO]

12 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

Doesn't matter how close he came. The reason he left us in such a mess was because any success he had was built on nothing. 

You can defend his finances if you want but utter madness in my opinion

You see, I think it does....I think it matters very much...and Further more I think the financial mess had a direct affect on what he left us, in terms of playing staff....You do realise, I am not trying to win this debate, its impossible, because its an opinion and you have always had the same one like I have had mine.

Lets be clear here,  I am not defending him against no wrong doings, just the harsh case against him from some, in doing so , some could glean , I am unhappy with the one we have, on the contrary.... that's not the case.I think we have a brighter future with Dean than we had with Steve...but that is drifting from the point.

I have even heard some fans baulk at the bereavement of his Mom and Dad in close proximity, as if its some kind of inconvenient mitigation to their view.

Look, I accept you have your view and its not the same as mine ( on this subject)Que Sera Sera.

[Mantis]

8 hours ago, TRO said:

Thats an opinion.....I am not so sure he did....unless of course you are alluding to him not getting the best out of them?.....I accept we have more intensity with Dean and a better brand of football.

Anyway, I am happier with the football Dean is offering.....still a way to go of course.

The team Bruce had last season was easily top 4 quality - when did we ever have a top 4 squad in the Premier League? Very rarely, if at all. His win ratio has to be taken in that context.

Edited April 9, 2019 by Mantis

[S-Platt]

8 minutes ago, Mantis said:

when did we ever have a top 4 squad in the Premier League?

Maybe not squad but 1996 Brian Little got us to 4th in the League before that got Champions League qualification.  Won the League Cup and lost an FA Cup Semi Final all in the same season!!

Anyway Bruce schooling MON tonight is mildly amusing.

 

[TRO]

3 hours ago, sne said:

Of course wages are included in what we/he spent. Why wouldn't they be?

You just have to look at our financial reports from the previous years to see how much more we've spent compared to other clubs in this (and most other leagues)

We've had a PL budget while in the Championship. Last season we spend about £73m on wages while Fulham who were second behind us in that list spent £53m, Wolves £51m and the rest of the clubs below £50m all the way down to Burton who spent £10m.

And just as the people who "hate" him are not going to change their views, nor are the ones who "love" him.

You don't have to "love" someone in your context .....to defend them.

I would suspect the days of managers having an exclusive say in players wages is long gone...its senior staff at the clubs would decide that with the players agent, surely.

 

[Keyblade]

@bobzy don't wanna stink up the promotion thread so I'll respond here. Obviously I was roasting a bit with the 'put wor boots on' for reasons which I outlined a bit further up on this page. It's the same reason I take the piss out of MON for example, and how I don't do the same for say McLeish who is objectively a worse manager. But I do really think Wednesday's start with him is analogous to ours and I wouldn't be surprised if they follow a similar trajectory to ours.

Also he got sacked because it became clear into his 3rd season that we just were not getting promoted with him. It's not because we as fans wanted to be blowing away teams and playing silky football (as we are now incidentally ). Every fan would have taken 38 boring 1-0's to promotion any day of the week. Might as well say it was because he managed SHA next.

[bobzy]

3 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

@bobzy don't wanna stink up the promotion thread so I'll respond here. Obviously I was roasting a bit with the 'put wor boots on' for reasons which I outlined a bit further up on this page. It's the same reason I take the piss out of MON for example, and how I don't do the same for say McLeish who is objectively a worse manager. But I do really think Wednesday's start with him is analogous to ours and I wouldn't be surprised if they follow a similar trajectory to ours.

Also he got sacked because it became clear into his 3rd season that we just were not getting promoted with him. It's not because we as fans wanted to be blowing away teams and playing silky football (as we are now incidentally ). Every fan would have taken 38 boring 1-0's to promotion any day of the week. Might as well say it was because he managed SHA next.

I agree regarding him getting sacked, but I also think there's an expectation amongst our fan base.  If you go back 6 (?) games, there'll be plenty of people questioning Smith, saying he's out of his depth etc. etc.  Now, everything looks rosy and people believe we'll get promoted.  The extremes are probably more evident at Villa than many other clubs.  I think fans would have taken 38 1-0's, but not, say, 20 of them.

We got 83 points in the league last season and lost the playoff final.  At that point, people were calling for Bruce to be sacked.  This season, we cannot reach 83 points in the league.  If we lose in the playoff final again, I doubt there will be many people calling for Smith to be sacked.  The situations aren't the same, of course, and Bruce had much longer than Smith.  However, the type of football we're seeing (potentially along with Smith being a Villa fan) will give Smith more time than Bruce could ever have been afforded.

As a disclaimer, because if you type anything even remotely positive regarding Bruce automatically makes you think he's one of the World's top managers, it was completely correct that he got sacked when he did.  However, I think the fan base generally had lost touch with him far before that point.

[sne]

4 minutes ago, TRO said:

You don't have to "love" someone in your context .....to defend them.

I would suspect the days of managers having an exclusive say in players wages is long gone...its senior staff at the clubs would decide that with the players agent, surely.

 

Or "hate" to criticize.

The discussion still going on seen to be that he did or didn't have much funds to spend.

And as you say he himself didn't spend any of his own money on players for Villa, but the club spent a lot 

£20m more on wages than the second highers spenders in the league for example last season.

It's never the manager who spends the money, it's the club.

Hence why it's not Bruce or RDM who are sitting with giant holes in their pockets, they both made out like bandits while Villa had to be sold to fund survival.

So thanks for that I guess.

[bobzy]

1 minute ago, sne said:

Or "hate" to criticize.

The discussion still going on seen to be that he did or didn't have much funds to spend.

And as you say he himself didn't spend any of his own money on players for Villa, but the club spent a lot 

£20m more on wages than the second highers spenders in the league for example last season.

It's never the manager who spends the money, it's the club.

Hence why it's not Bruce or RDM who are sitting with giant holes in their pockets, they both made out like bandits while Villa had to be sold to fund survival.

So thanks for that I guess.

I don't think it would have been either Bruce or RDM who agreed transfer fees or wages?  The club did that.  It has been terribly run.

[sne]

3 minutes ago, bobzy said:

I don't think it would have been either Bruce or RDM who agreed transfer fees or wages?  The club did that.  It has been terribly run.

Exactly.

But when Bruce comes out and complains he "didn't have millions to spend" while the club actually was spending £73m or whatever the exact figure might have been on wages it rings a bit false.