Steve Bruce

[AntrimBlack]

6 hours ago, Dave J said:

I’m not in all honesty - although I would be happy to be part of a debate on this.

My post was simply a response to a previous post and which I am  happy to repeat that in my humble opinion Bruce has had more resource ( yes agreed largely inherited ) add to this his own signings - i then can’t see how another Villa manager outside of the top flight has ever had more resource made available to him

i will happily stand corrected by someone as I don’t know the facts - but i’ll be surprised if Lambert had the same resource whilst keeping us in the prem as long as he did ( makes you wonder - he wasn’t half as bad as made out to be) 

I agree.

[Demitri_C]

1 hour ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

This is confusing to me, considering Allardyce has been in the Premier League most of his career?

I'll always remember the brilliant job he did with that Bolton team.

Used to watch the because of the Jamaican player at the time.

Exactly my point, they are not similar at all. Bruce is a championship manager, alkDyce is premier league mid table manager. We might as well say Warnock like alladyce as well on that basis. I don't agree with that point.

[Demitri_C]

33 minutes ago, AntrimBlack said:

Nothing bizarre about it. The way we are playing at the moment I would not be confident we would get through the playoffs.

It is when you consider current form, getting results with various key injuries and limiting a very good Leeds side at home to minimal opportunities 

[VillanousOne]

Ultimately considering the injuries we are doing well.

Crocked
Hogan
Kodjia
Jed
Terry
Green

Injured? Incapable of ever being fit?
Gabby
Micah

Back in training?
RHM

Wasted on loan (not blaming anyone for that just stating we can't get a fee for either so still subsidise their wages)
Ross
Gil
 

That is 10 players unavailable, 5 of which are first team players.



 

[Michael118]

20 minutes ago, mole86 said:

He's also Nigerian. I believe he was referring to Ricardo Gardner

Yep, sorry JV.

Gardner is the Jamaican player you were probably referring to. Okocha is Nigerian and Turkish. When I think of Bolton from that time I immediately think of Jay Jay Okocha and assumed it was who you meant. I should have checked it before posting.

[TheStagMan]

1 hour ago, VillanousOne said:

Ultimately considering the injuries we are doing well.

Crocked
Hogan
Kodjia
Jed
Terry
Green

Injured? Incapable of ever being fit?
Gabby
Micah

Back in training?
RHM

Wasted on loan (not blaming anyone for that just stating we can't get a fee for either so still subsidise their wages)
Ross
Gil
 

That is 10 players unavailable, 5 of which are first team players.



 

There are only really 3 key players out. Terry, Kodjia and Jedi - in that order. 

Hogan, Green and RHM are not really first teamers although now would have been ideal for them to try and stake a claim

Gabby and Micah are just a waste of wages so no loss there.

Out on loan is a choice not an injury. 

 

Yes we have injury problems but let's not make out we have lost half the first team.

[Mark Albrighton]

Not forgetting we’ve only just had both Grealish & Lansbury back. 

Green was a starter at the beginning of the season, it’s just proven to be a positive as it’s enabled Adomah to flourish. 

So I’d say we’ve had a fair proportion of players who would likely be in our starting xi injured for lengthy spells. Certainly it’s correct to say our match day squads have been hit, certainly going forward.

Any team would miss their equivalent players, in particular their captain/best defender and their most likely top goal scorer. We’re doing alright.

[VillanousOne]

51 minutes ago, TheStagMan said:

There are only really 3 key players out. Terry, Kodjia and Jedi - in that order. 

Hogan, Green and RHM are not really first teamers although now would have been ideal for them to try and stake a claim

Gabby and Micah are just a waste of wages so no loss there.

Out on loan is a choice not an injury. 

 

Yes we have injury problems but let's not make out we have lost half the first team.

We have lost our best striker, and our best defender, i'd say Jed is also one of our best midfielders.

I didn't include players on loan in the injury list, just players Bruce can't call on.

By team do you mean first eleven? As also not what I meant. If you want to play down injury issues then that is your opinion, mine opinion is that considering who we don't have Bruce is doing ok, not amazingly, not out of this world but ok.    

[Demitri_C]

1 hour ago, TheStagMan said:

There are only really 3 key players out. Terry, Kodjia and Jedi - in that order. 

Hogan, Green and RHM are not really first teamers although now would have been ideal for them to try and stake a claim

Gabby and Micah are just a waste of wages so no loss there.

Out on loan is a choice not an injury. 

 

Yes we have injury problems but let's not make out we have lost half the first team.

Take wolves main defender, central midfielder and striker and lets how they cope. Same with Cardiff and Sheffield united. Let's not forget as the others have both said grealish and Lansbury have been out most of the season. No one us making excuses just presenting facts.

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

To be fair, some of the "injuries" actually worked in Bruce/ Our favour.

There was a point where Hourihane, Davis, and Adomah couldn't get into the team even though it wasn't working.

Taylors suspension turned Hutton into Roberto Carlos.

The absence of Kodjia forced us to find out team game and spread the goals around the team.

Sure I have missed a couple of things out.

However, the fear is that even if it continued to not work, certain players and systems would have continued to be played because they are "Big players" on paper.

This has forced the team to dig deep and they will have picked up confidence seeing that they can play without said "Big Players".

Now imagine how good it could be if ALL the big players were available, on form, and we kept the team spirit?

[TRO]

2 hours ago, TheStagMan said:

There are only really 3 key players out. Terry, Kodjia and Jedi - in that order. 

Hogan, Green and RHM are not really first teamers although now would have been ideal for them to try and stake a claim

Gabby and Micah are just a waste of wages so no loss there.

Out on loan is a choice not an injury. 

 

Yes we have injury problems but let's not make out we have lost half the first team.

I think in terms of influence its equivalent to half the first team.

Those players are massively missed .....we have done a sterling job without them( in terms of results), but it will catch up with us.

They are KEY players not just any old players......take 3 Key players out of any side and they will be badly missed, especially after a few games.

[TRO]

1 hour ago, VillanousOne said:

We have lost our best striker, and our best defender, i'd say Jed is also one of our best midfielders.

I didn't include players on loan in the injury list, just players Bruce can't call on.

By team do you mean first eleven? As also not what I meant. If you want to play down injury issues then that is your opinion, mine opinion is that considering who we don't have Bruce is doing ok, not amazingly, not out of this world but ok.    

and its beginning to hurt us.

[VillanousOne]

1 hour ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

To be fair, some of the "injuries" actually worked in Bruce/ Our favour.

There was a point where Hourihane, Davis, and Adomah couldn't get into the team even though it wasn't working.

Taylors suspension turned Hutton into Roberto Carlos.

The absence of Kodjia forced us to find out team game and spread the goals around the team.

Sure I have missed a couple of things out.

However, the fear is that even if it continued to not work, certain players and systems would have continued to be played because they are "Big players" on paper.

This has forced the team to dig deep and they will have picked up confidence seeing that they can play without said "Big Players".

Now imagine how good it could be if ALL the big players were available, on form, and we kept the team spirit?

Totally agree, the injuries of Grealish, Green and Kodjia have helped us set up differently and no one could have predicted Hutton's resurgeance!

We relied far too heavily on Kodjia before so the fact we have done so well without him is good but doesn't suddenly lead to the conclusion we don't need him. I also think we are starting to play in a way that could benefit Hogan if fit, especially if Grealish starts playing.

Despite how well Davis has done, he is just 19 and needs some protection. Adomah is becoming a marked man as we saw against Leeds and we all know Samba is no John Terry (whilst Elphick clearly isn't trusted to do a job). Even Snods is running out of steam. 

Lansbury, Grealish can refresh things, but we need to get some of the walking wounded back fast.

 

[lapal_fan]

I think we've reached a nice little point now, where we are genuinely hard to beat.  There aren't many teams in this league who will want to play us.

I think we just now need to balance the other way slightly and try and score a few more goals.  Not many are needed if you have a good defence, and I believe we really do have a good defence for this league when our 1st choice back 4 are out there. 

If we can crack that egg, then I can see us really gaining momentum in the near future. 

It's a shame we're missing Kodjia, because we know he can score goals and put pressure on those playing in front of him to keep performing & of course, rotating the squad when fresh legs are needed.  

I'm thinking Jack Grealish could now become a lot more pivotal in our attacks, so this could well be his chance to shine over Xmas. 

Having Lansbury back will put good pressure on Hourihane to keep playing well too, as I feel he's been slightly below his best for a few games now (probably fatigue).  

Just need Terry back and Jedi and our squad will look really healthy. 

I think Ulloa bought in would do us wonders.  He's big, powerful, got a decent touch and isn't really slow.  He could give us that aggression when Davis isn't playing or maybe even come in and be our number 1 striker.  

I don't think we're a million miles away at all.  

[striker]

16 hours ago, TRO said:

I think in terms of influence its equivalent to half the first team.

Those players are massively missed .....we have done a sterling job without them( in terms of results), but it will catch up with us.

They are KEY players not just any old players......take 3 Key players out of any side and they will be badly missed, especially after a few games.

In numbers yes but you'd have to look at the contributions those players were making performance wise before being injured.

Aside from Terry the other two aren't being missed at the moment.

I did previously state the Kodjia injury may be a blessing in disguise concerning Villa being a better team without him and have seen nothing yet to sway me from that view. It has also made Bruce more concentrated and stopped him tinkering with systems.

In January Villa don't need Kodjia coming back or a like for like replacement. What is needed is a loanee of the same ilk as Davis and that now seems to be a widely accepted viewpoint.

[TheStagMan]

19 hours ago, VillanousOne said:

We have lost our best striker, and our best defender, i'd say Jed is also one of our best midfielders.

I didn't include players on loan in the injury list, just players Bruce can't call on.

By team do you mean first eleven? As also not what I meant. If you want to play down injury issues then that is your opinion, mine opinion is that considering who we don't have Bruce is doing ok, not amazingly, not out of this world but ok.    

I agree he is doing OK. And I am not playing down the injury problems - if you read it I did call the three i mentioned KEY players, however, we have a large squad that we should by now be in a position to use better and not be relying on a 19 year old to lead the line for us. But hey, we are where we are. 

 

[TheStagMan]

18 hours ago, TRO said:

I think in terms of influence its equivalent to half the first team.

Those players are massively missed .....we have done a sterling job without them( in terms of results), but it will catch up with us.

They are KEY players not just any old players......take 3 Key players out of any side and they will be badly missed, especially after a few games.

If you read my post you will see that i did describe them as key players - but admittedly I did not capitalise it like you did.

 

and its beginning to hurt us.

And this is why the absolute reliance on Kodjia was such a mistake, as it was last year.

[bannedfromHandV]

On 02/12/2017 at 11:54, Vive_La_Villa said:

I think JV's point was Bruce hasn't done that on a shoestring budget.  Or nor should he have to. You need a lot money to change a team and get them promoted and that includes wages

Net spend doesn't tell the whole story though. 

 

Net spend doesn't tell the whole story, agreed.

But I don't think SB has spent 'a lot' of money, the club has spent a lot of money since Xia came in but most of that was spent by RDM and at least 50% of that spend was a complete waste (in hindsight).

It's not fair to lump it all in the same bracket and then blame it on SB.

Hourihane, Lansbury, Thor and Bree were all under £5M (in fact, all under £4M weren't they?)

Whelan and Elmo £1M

Terry and Samba free

Johnstone, Snodgrass, Onomah all loans (some fees included for each I'd imagine)

So unless I've missed anyone off (and I fear that I have), his only significant signing has been Hogan at £12M+ and yes, the way that's panned out doesn't reflect well on SB but then it happens, it will happen again.

Sure, we're probably paying large wages for most if not all of the above but then that's the advantage of being Aston Villa in the Championship.

 

I just don't get this notion that he's spent or wasted a ton of money, particularly when you factor in the gains made on players sold.

[rubberman]

2 hours ago, lapal_fan said:

I'm thinking Jack Grealish could now become a lot more pivotal in our attacks, so this could well be his chance to shine over Xmas. 

Agreed.  Not least in getting a few dangerous free kicks for Hourihane to use.

[Grasshopper]

43 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said:

Net spend doesn't tell the whole story, agreed.

But I don't think SB has spent 'a lot' of money, the club has spent a lot of money since Xia came in but most of that was spent by RDM and at least 50% of that spend was a complete waste (in hindsight).

It's not fair to lump it all in the same bracket and then blame it on SB.

Hourihane, Lansbury, Thor and Bree were all under £5M (in fact, all under £4M weren't they?)

Whelan and Elmo £1M

Terry and Samba free

Johnstone, Snodgrass, Onomah all loans (some fees included for each I'd imagine)

So unless I've missed anyone off (and I fear that I have), his only significant signing has been Hogan at £12M+ and yes, the way that's panned out doesn't reflect well on SB but then it happens, it will happen again.

Sure, we're probably paying large wages for most if not all of the above but then that's the advantage of being Aston Villa in the Championship.

 

I just don't get this notion that he's spent or wasted a ton of money, particularly when you factor in the gains made on players sold.

I agree with you

(that may even be a first)

When DrT took over and talk of ins & outs were rife, I posted that I didnt think it would be possible to get all the bad apples out immediately/in a short space of time. And that we may need 2/3 manager changes to finally make a total clearout. (as we still have Bunn, Hutton, Richards, Gaby on our books with Gil still loaned? - the clearout isnt complete)

I was amazed that we got so many „remnants of our failed past“ out so quickly.

The fact that most of those „apples“ cost PL prices meant (most likely) that we could possibly get favourable sums for them. Add the fact that there were soooooooo many of them, it is hardly surprising that if the „mass“ of outs were sold for £x a lot of the costs for new/loan players wouldn‘t be too much (calculating nett sales & wages out <-> buys/loans & wages in) and would be covered aided by a few of DrT‘s invested cash.

So its more of a „job well done“ to those responsible, which I would include both RDM & BRUCE, for the actual ins & out rather than how much has been spent (nett or not).

The fact that we spent 12, 15, & 12mill (correct me if wrong) on Kodjia, Hogan & McC is neither here or there because not all signings will work out. Its unfortunate that from 3 players bought for one position 2 have not worked, 1 has but is now injured. Its borderline to critsize RDM & Bruce for not having a 100% success rate with buys. Indeed regarding outs too. (Bruces decision - if it was his - to sell Baker still irks me greatly) because not even Fergie got everything right. But as Bruce has been here for all but 11 games in this league, and a decisive amount of ins/outs have been under his reign, it will be on him if we dont go up.

Logic suggests that a goalscoring forward costs that much, and we may have to invest such a sum again. But, Luckily, there is a loan market we can explore, which I hope we do to find someone who can  replace/support/compliment Davis and fit Bruces approach (or dare I say it - influence a more progressive approach)

Bruce, RDM or the board cannot be critisized for a few signings not working out when there has been such a great turnover of players, but unfortunately, there have been too many, and RDM’s reign should take most of the blame for that, not Bruce‘s reign, which can be blamed for Hogan not being a fit and the far too slow (imho) change in „results over an extended period“ as we are still playing catch up.

However they need to be on the ball when the next set of decisions regarding who to keep/get in comes around.

I think slamming Bruce because of the amounts spent (nett or not) is less the point. We had the Capitol to trade, we had the parachute payments and the cash from DrT which meant we were at an advantage over all other teams but Newcastle (last season), Wolves and Boro (this season) regarding ffp.

If we dont go up, it will be because of an inability to make the tools we‘ve had at our disposal to secure promotion. Bruce will be largely responsible for that.

I‘m still not convinced that Bruce will get us to 2nd and I think the playoffs are a risk we could fail.

 i hope come May the table reads

1 Wolves

2 Aston Villa

I‘ll even be delighted with a wemberley victory if need be - but I fear for my health as much as us failing