Steve Bruce

[hippo]

10 hours ago, srsmithusa said:

"What is nuanced about enjoying a win then slating the manager?"   well if  stick with my opinion I'm "stubborn," if posters supported Bruce and then changed to think he should go, they are "fickle."  it actually seems that you thrive on calling names of those that don't agree with you and the only position the rest of us should be allowed to hold, is yours.

Nuance is being able to hold a tension of different views.  I can completely enjoy the clubs success and completely believe that Bruce has not been and is not the best way forward.

"Also, I wonder where we'd be if you had axed Bruce and Wyness 5 games into the season" -  neither of those will ever know the answer to that question.  clearly, you think we would be in deep shit... or sitting right next to it (SHA), of course.   I do not.  I think we would be better off.  unless Dr. Who can tell us which  time line would have worked better, faster, we'll never know.  I'm OK with you having your opinion.  But you really should keep in mind that is no more than that.  if we all agreed, there wouldn't be much need for forum would there?

Personally, I think that well planned changes some time ago, or even now, could reasonable produce performances so that matches like monday could much be closer to the norm than a delightful aberration.  Monday was so far off from the norm that pages and pages of posts have been baffled to explain where this team came from.  I think this team has been there all along, buried behind poor tactics, poor selections, poor coaching, poor motivation, poor instructions, poor discipline, poor management. Bruce has produced crap for 15 months.  Monday he did not.  It appears as though it's easy for you to look past all that.  Fair enough, not me.

 

 

You see I am fickle. If Bruce wins games I think he is a good manager - If he doesn't I don't. 

Thats how I judge any manager, not just Bruce. Some are impressed by a manager who claims to 'changing the ethos', 'root and branch restructure', 'giving us an identity' - All well and good - But I still prefer a manager who wins games in the here and now  rather than promises us some sexy football nirvana in 3 or 4 seasons time. 

[hippo]

1 hour ago, peterms said:

Yes, I'm not saying that every minute of every match has been unremittingly dreadful.  But taken as a whole, it's been pretty poor stuff, hasn't it?  As we knew before the Bristol game and as that game so emphatically showed, we are capable of much better football than the dreary stuff we have so often been served up.  Let's see some more.

You could say Bristol are capable of much better than they played monday because they didn't hit the heights when they played Manu. We might get one or two  more Bristol type performance this season - we certainly won't play like that every week. Look how bang average newcastle and brighton looked at VP last season.  The question for me is can we still get results when we aren't quite firing ? 

[peterms]

2 minutes ago, hippo said:

You could say Bristol are capable of much better than they played monday because they didn't hit the heights when they played Manu. We might get one or two  more Bristol type performance this season - we certainly won't play like that every week. Look how bang average newcastle and brighton looked at VP last season.  The question for me is can we still get results when we aren't quite firing ? 

Yes, I'm sure we won't play like that every week, still less get scorelines like that.  But it would be nice to play a more positive, attacking style than we have done for so much of the last year.  I think a lot of people were prepared to put up with the quality if it meant promotion, but I doubt there are many who think the quality of football we have been delivering was just fine.

[hippo]

7 minutes ago, peterms said:

Yes, I'm sure we won't play like that every week, still less get scorelines like that.  But it would be nice to play a more positive, attacking style than we have done for so much of the last year.  I think a lot of people were prepared to put up with the quality if it meant promotion, but I doubt there are many who think the quality of football we have been delivering was just fine.

Im sure youre right.

I hoped SB would do better - on his appointment I didn't think we would still be talking about play offs 2 seasons later ! - that said he hasn't done bad enough  to bring someone else in - not that their are many options who would could feasibly get.

[Keyblade]

I don't care about style of football or how pleasing it is on the eyes. All I care about is if a particular brand of football is conducive to scoring goals and/or winning games. I wouldn't mind a Sam Allardyce/Sean Dyche style of grinding out 1-0's if it works as it consistently does for those 2 managers. You can add Tony Pulis to that category too.

My issue with Bruce's style is that it's not even really a concrete style. When you watch us most games, you can't really discern any real game plan. We usually just go out there and hope somebody can pull a rabbit out of the hat, and apart from a handful of good performances (Monday's 5 star performance included), that's generally how most of our wins have been recorded. And by his own admission, Steve Bruce doesn't really do tactics, he's more of a man manager.

So it's not in the least bit unreasonable that people, myself included, have concerns that the way we play is not a sustainable way to play if we want consistent results which is what is needed if we want automatic promotion (which despite inexplicably lowered expectations is what we should have been aiming for from the start). There are always extended bad runs on the card when you play this way as we have seen numerous times already under Bruce.

So while I'm really encouraged by this recent performance, there are still many question marks on whether we can be consistent and keep this up. I really hope we can, in which case I'll be fully behind Bruce and our promotion bid...but for now I remain skeptical.

[lexicon]

'Fickle' is a stupid term that gets thrown around all the time when it comes to football. 

FWIW, I think that it's a lot more mature to base your opinion on present evidence and accept that it might change, than it is to blindly stick to your guns because you're petrified of being wrong about something. Having 'strong convictions' is not necessarily a positive thing, it can easily turn into stubborn stupidity or close-mindedness. 

[Grasshopper]

37 minutes ago, lexicon said:

'Fickle' is a stupid term that gets thrown around all the time when it comes to football. 

FWIW, I think that it's a lot more mature to base your opinion on present evidence and accept that it might change, than it is to blindly stick to your guns because you're petrified of being wrong about something. Having 'strong convictions' is not necessarily a positive thing, it can easily turn into stubborn stupidity or close-mindedness. 

Ok

then you should „keep your mind open“ to the FACT that Bruce will get us to look like Barca one day, whilst some on here, me included, rely on reality.

In your opinion I will remain immature by having a grasp of reality

[bannedfromHandV]

13 minutes ago, Grasshopper said:

Ok

then you should „keep your mind open“ to the FACT that Bruce will get us to look like Barca one day, whilst some on here, me included, rely on reality.

In your opinion I will remain immature by having a grasp of reality

The fact that you took Lexicon's post personally should, in itself, be a warning sign for you (bearing in mind he didn't aim it at anyone or reference anyone specifically).

 

Though I doubt it'll be taken on board.

[Stevo985]

5 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said:

The fact that you took Lexicon's post personally should, in itself, be a warning sign for you (bearing in mind he didn't aim it at anyone or reference anyone specifically).

 

Though I doubt it'll be taken on board.

Lexicon didn't even aim it at either side of the argument. It was just a general comment (that I completely agree with fwiw)

[hippo]

23 minutes ago, Grasshopper said:

Ok

then you should „keep your mind open“ to the FACT that Bruce will get us to look like Barca one day, whilst some on here, me included, rely on reality.

In your opinion I will remain immature by having a grasp of reality

If there is a manager out there who can get us playing like barca and would be willing to come - then yes get him in.  Personally I doubt such a character exists. 

[Grasshopper]

11 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said:

The fact that you took Lexicon's post personally should, in itself, be a warning sign for you (bearing in mind he didn't aim it at anyone or reference anyone specifically).

 

Though I doubt it'll be taken on board.

either it goes in or it doesnt

[striker]

If that is the case TRO how do you explain why some managers are more successful than others and why some managers get more out of a team than his predecessor?

[srsmithusa]

2 hours ago, striker said:

Up until the ‘Bruce has produced crap for 15 months’ comment I agree with much of the rest and I’m sorry to say I don’t necessarily believe Bruce’s comment that he sent the team out with the same instructions against Boro.

 

"Crap for 15 months", MAY have been a bit of hyperbole.   On the other hand, if you read the post match responses for most December games, I may have been putting it mildly. 

 

 

[srsmithusa]

1 hour ago, peterms said:

Yes, I'm sure we won't play like that every week, still less get scorelines like that.  But it would be nice to play a more positive, attacking style than we have done for so much of the last year.  I think a lot of people were prepared to put up with the quality if it meant promotion, but I doubt there are many who think the quality of football we have been delivering was just fine.

Ding, ding, Ding,   Excellent post.

[bannedfromHandV]

26 minutes ago, Grasshopper said:

either it goes in or it doesnt

Indeed, and as we all know, where you're concerned, it firmly doesn't.

[markavfc40]

1 hour ago, hippo said:

I hoped SB would do better - on his appointment I didn't think we would still be talking about play offs 2 seasons later ! - that said he hasn't done bad enough  to bring someone else in - not that their are many options who would could feasibly get.

 

It is not two seasons later is it. It is his first full season in charge and whilst you may be talking about play offs I think we have a great chance of automatic and I doubt I am alone in that thinking.

The target for Bruce this season is promotion and we are currently just five points off the position we need to be in on May 6th with 20 games to go. I see the play offs as a fall back position but no more than that.

[omariqy]

13 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

 

It is not two seasons later is it. It is his first full season in charge and whilst you may be talking about play offs I think we have a great chance of automatic and I doubt I am alone in that thinking.

The target for Bruce this season is promotion and we are currently just five points off the position we need to be in on May 6th with 20 games to go. I see the play offs as a fall back position but no more than that.

End of the day if we don't get promoted then he has failed, whatever way that happens or not. 

[pacbuddies]

13 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

 

It is not two seasons later is it. It is his first full season in charge and whilst you may be talking about play offs I think we have a great chance of automatic and I doubt I am alone in that thinking.

The target for Bruce this season is promotion and we are currently just five points off the position we need to be in on May 6th with 20 games to go. I see the play offs as a fall back position but no more than that.

He had plenty enough games left last season to get us into a promotion situation. He did it with SHA with an inferior squad of players and less games to play.

[hippo]

8 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

 

It is not two seasons later is it. It is his first full season in charge and whilst you may be talking about play offs I think we have a great chance of automatic and I doubt I am alone in that thinking.

The target for Bruce this season is promotion and we are currently just five points off the position we need to be in on May 6th with 20 games to go. I see the play offs as a fall back position but no more than that.

Yes I know. I am still supportive of SB mainly because any other feasible options seem extremely high risk. I was just hoping he would have done better. I always have a formula that you finish the season roughly where you have spent most of it - so on that calculation play offs are on the cards. But with our bigger squad and players returning from Injury, and other clubs crumbling under the intensity of games and injuries that brings - its very much all to play for......What we really need is a striker (either from the current squad or transfer inbound) to start rattling the goals in - that IMO would make us very strong candidates for 2nd place.

[markavfc40]

19 minutes ago, pacbuddies said:

He had plenty enough games left last season to get us into a promotion situation. He did it with SHA with an inferior squad of players and less games to play.

I don't think last season was ever realistic was it. Wyness was stating in March that they hadn't realised how much of a mess the club was in until months after they had arrived.

I am repeating what I said in an earlier post but Bruce inherited a shambles. A club that had been bottom feeders in the Prem for 6 years, with a handful of wins in 18 months, no away wins in 15 months, 1 win in 12 to start the season. I know we spent a fortune for this level over the summer before he arrived but much of it wasn't spent well and we were trying to integrate new players into a squad still made up of players with a losers mentality ingrained in it 

I don't know what Bruce inherited at Sha when he went there but we do know the mess he came into here and I don't think it was realistic to turn that around inside 30 odd games and have us competing for promotion.

This season is a different kettle of fish and promotion is the aim and he will be judged accordingly against that expectation come the end of the season. For what it is worth I think he will achieve what was expected.

Edited January 3, 2018 by markavfc40