Vive_La_Villa Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 49 minutes ago, Dave J said: Oh your bang on the money when you say each to their own - I've no idea how long you have followed Villa - but I can assure you it's tedious all right- I just dread to think what Big Ron would say about what gets served up now Are you serious? If so you need to watch some dvds of the season we finished second because I think you're memory might be a bit clouded by your disdain for Bruce. Nobody played good football back then! It was all about results. The way teams play with this passing style that everyone wants only started in the UK from Arsenal and Wenger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chips'ngravy Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 10 hours ago, Stevo985 said: The final thing is that when we do hoof and go long, this is not an instruction from the manager, imo. I'm not saying it's not Bruce's fault. It is. But the hoof and long balls come from a lack of movement on the pitch. Again this is still Bruce's fault, I am not absolving him. I'm just making the distinction that i don't believe he sends the team out with instructions to play long balls. It's just a result of a lack of movement and, of course, sometimes it's a player's lack of passing ability or lack of calmness on the ball. Spot on about the lack of movement. Our long balls are definitely a result of our too often static play. Whenever our centre backs get the ball Jedinak shows no interest in taking it off them and Hourihane either ambles around equally disinterested or sets off on a, more often than not, futile run down the inside right channel where he has about a 30% chance of receiving a neck high ball with his back to play. Again, these may not be Bruce's direct orders to play that way but he's certainly not doing enough to encourage them to do otherwise on the evidence I've seen. Getting this right is fundamental to us playing ball-to-feet attacking football through the midfield. Hopefully, the 5-0 will be the shot in the arm of confidence for the players to trust in themselves and each other to do so. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 1 hour ago, Stevo985 said: Much. Hoof is not really a matter of opinion. Either we do or we don't. And we don't, although I guess you could claim we hoof it more than you would like, but seeing as statistically we're the 3rd best team in the league at not "hoofing" it, it's a bit rich. Boring and Tedious is a matter of opinion. So if you find our football boring and tedious then fair enough. That's your opinion, you're entitled to it. I do too, sometimes, fwiw. The football during the bad run over Christmas was pretty dire, with Brentford being the worst, imo. But I think generally this season our football has been decent, and a lot of the time it's won us games, which is rarely boring for me. But each to their own. Interesting comments. Here's my take on each game so far in the league. Hull - average performance Cardiff - poor Reading - poor Norwich - v good Bristol - average Brentford - poor Boro - average Barnsley - v good Forest - average Burton - v good Bolton - average Wolves - poor Fulham - good Blues - average Preston - v good Sheff Wed - poor QPR - v good Sunderland - average Ipswich - good Leeds - average Millwall - poor Derby - poor Sheff Utd - average Brentford - v poor Boro - good Bristol City - v good Sorry a bit long winded but I make that 17 games where we have been average/poor/very poor and 9 games where we have been good or very good. Don't forget last season was even worse. I think when people say the football has been hard to watch under Bruce have a good case. We are doing fairly well in the league and for the majority of the season it has been turgid stuff. Only Bristol, QPR, Preston, Barnsley, Burton and Norwich stand out for me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted January 4, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted January 4, 2018 16 minutes ago, omariqy said: Interesting comments. Here's my take on each game so far in the league. Hull - average performance Cardiff - poor Reading - poor Norwich - v good Bristol - average Brentford - poor Boro - average Barnsley - v good Forest - average Burton - v good Bolton - average Wolves - poor Fulham - good Blues - average Preston - v good Sheff Wed - poor QPR - v good Sunderland - average Ipswich - good Leeds - average Millwall - poor Derby - poor Sheff Utd - average Brentford - v poor Boro - good Bristol City - v good Sorry a bit long winded but I make that 17 games where we have been average/poor/very poor and 9 games where we have been good or very good. Don't forget last season was even worse. I think when people say the football has been hard to watch under Bruce have a good case. We are doing fairly well in the league and for the majority of the season it has been turgid stuff. Only Bristol, QPR, Preston, Barnsley, Burton and Norwich stand out for me. Like I said, a game where we play average football and win, I would put down as a good game. I'm not saying the football couldn't be better, but the OP was talking about football being boring. Personally I"m rarely bored by a game we win. So games like Forest, Bolton, Sunderland etc that you've marked as Average and been negative about, I would have down as a game I've enjoyed. So I'm comfortable with my statement that generally our football has been "decent". That's not exactly bigging it up. I like to see us win, and as a ST holder I've seen that quite a lot this season. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 6 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: Like I said, a game where we play average football and win, I would put down as a good game. I'm not saying the football couldn't be better, but the OP was talking about football being boring. Personally I"m rarely bored by a game we win. So games like Forest, Bolton, Sunderland etc that you've marked as Average and been negative about, I would have down as a game I've enjoyed. So I'm comfortable with my statement that generally our football has been "decent". That's not exactly bigging it up. I like to see us win, and as a ST holder I've seen that quite a lot this season. Oh I agree on enjoying the wins. I expected this under Bruce and accept it as long as it gets us promoted. My post was more focused on the bit in bold about the football being decent for the main. I don't agree entirely. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
srsmithusa Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 2 hours ago, Stevo985 said: Much. Hoof is not really a matter of opinion. Either we do or we don't. And we don't, although I guess you could claim we hoof it more than you would like, but seeing as statistically we're the 3rd best team in the league at not "hoofing" it, it's a bit rich. Boring and Tedious is a matter of opinion. So if you find our football boring and tedious then fair enough. That's your opinion, you're entitled to it. I do too, sometimes, fwiw. The football during the bad run over Christmas was pretty dire, with Brentford being the worst, imo. But I think generally this season our football has been decent, and a lot of the time it's won us games, which is rarely boring for me. But each to their own. The blanket statement that “it’s a fact we do not play hoof” hinges on defining “hoof” the way you define it. Lately it seems that most VT quibbling and arguments are a matter of definition of terms. A long pass is not what I call “hoof.” Long passes include great runs, heads up goodvision and pinpoint accuracy over great distance. Pirlo was great at the long pass, rarely, if ever, did he hoof. Of course, I recognize that statement depends on my definition of the very nebulous term “hoof.” 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 1 hour ago, chips'ngravy said: Spot on about the lack of movement. Our long balls are definitely a result of our too often static play. Whenever our centre backs get the ball Jedinak shows no interest in taking it off them and Hourihane either ambles around equally disinterested or sets off on a, more often than not, futile run down the inside right channel where he has about a 30% chance of receiving a neck high ball with his back to play. Again, these may not be Bruce's direct orders to play that way but he's certainly not doing enough to encourage them to do otherwise on the evidence I've seen. Getting this right is fundamental to us playing ball-to-feet attacking football through the midfield. Hopefully, the 5-0 will be the shot in the arm of confidence for the players to trust in themselves and each other to do so. A much more accurate way of putting it IMO. Your second paragraph in particular is very apt.....well put. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 (edited) 13 minutes ago, srsmithusa said: The blanket statement that “it’s a fact we do not play hoof” hinges on defining “hoof” the way you define it. Lately it seems that most VT quibbling and arguments are a matter of definition of terms. A long pass is not what I call “hoof.” Long passes include great runs, heads up goodvision and pinpoint accuracy over great distance. Pirlo was great at the long pass, rarely, if ever, did he hoof. Of course, I recognize that statement depends on my definition of the very nebulous term “hoof.” My understanding is ..... A Hoof ball ......is ball delivered possibly a fair distance with no pre conceived idea of where its going or more specifically who to......Just clearing perceived danger. A long ball....... is a ball delivered to its desired destination to a pre determined player. which is what has more or less been said. FWIW Edited January 5, 2018 by TRO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
srsmithusa Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 2 hours ago, TRO said: My understanding is ..... A Hoof ball ......is ball delivered possibly a fair distance with no pre conceived idea of where its going or more specifically who to......Just clearing perceived danger. A long ball....... is a ball delivered to its desired destination to a pre determined player. which is what has more or less been said. FWIW Mine too. I was responding to a post that said unequivocally, that date proved we do not hoof. Are you saying that someone has proven that our long kicks past the midfield are delivered to a desired destination to a pre-determined player? And therefore we uniquvocally do not “hoof” the ball by the definition you give? I must have missed that post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael118 Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 On 04/01/2018 at 08:39, TRO said: I don't think it really matters whether its good or bad and that is subjective in itself. The intransigence and failure to see the intended reference is by some is inevitable. I could come up with a much better Analogy...... to no avail. A better analogy would be a film. A good writer & director could still produce an excellent film with an average cast. But a poorly written screenplay with an average director will never reach the same heights no matter how good your actors and actresses are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael118 Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 Leicester under Ranieri in 15/16 will always go further than say Barcelona under Bruce over a full season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilko154 Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 8 hours ago, chips'ngravy said: Hourihane either ambles around equally disinterested or sets off on a, more often than not, futile run down the inside right channel where he has about a 30% chance of receiving a neck high ball with his back to play. I actually think these runs were really useful in the last game, he instantly pulled a midfielder out of play to track him and panicked their center back and full back. 9 times out of 10 we either won't see the run or he won't manage to bring the ball down if played to him, but it creates space in the midfield for players like Grealish to receive the ball and have some time on it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted January 5, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted January 5, 2018 7 hours ago, srsmithusa said: The blanket statement that “it’s a fact we do not play hoof” hinges on defining “hoof” the way you define it. Lately it seems that most VT quibbling and arguments are a matter of definition of terms. A long pass is not what I call “hoof.” Long passes include great runs, heads up goodvision and pinpoint accuracy over great distance. Pirlo was great at the long pass, rarely, if ever, did he hoof. Of course, I recognize that statement depends on my definition of the very nebulous term “hoof.” I think whichever way you define it, we don't do it that much. It's just the go to criticism on here about Bruce if all else fails. There's not actually much truth to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted January 5, 2018 Author Share Posted January 5, 2018 One thing I will say about Bruce when he looks down and out he comes back fighting. Got to give him credit on that. But these lil mini bad runs need to stop if we want to finish 2nd. I dont think Derby have had a bad run yet therefore they are a concern 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 9 minutes ago, Demitri_C said: One thing I will say about Bruce when he looks down and out he comes back fighting. Got to give him credit on that. But these lil mini bad runs need to stop if we want to finish 2nd. I dont think Derby have had a bad run yet therefore they are a concern Apart from good winning runs in October and December they have largely been inconsistent picking up key wins at the right time. I don't see then sustaining the form you need to get 2nd. My worry is Leeds and Boro (under Pulis). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted January 5, 2018 Author Share Posted January 5, 2018 22 minutes ago, omariqy said: Apart from good winning runs in October and December they have largely been inconsistent picking up key wins at the right time. I don't see then sustaining the form you need to get 2nd. My worry is Leeds and Boro (under Pulis). The Leeds that lost at the sty? They are more inconsistent than us. Boro will be better once Pulis gets his dinosaur football working. Thankfully we have played them twice now so unless both of us end up in play offs we dont have to play them again. Derby are the main concern for me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villan_of_oz Posted January 5, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted January 5, 2018 1 hour ago, Michael118 said: Leicester under Ranieri in 15/16 will always go further than say Barcelona under Bruce over a full season. I'm pretty sure If I managed Barcelona and Pep managed Leicester, Barcelona would win over 50% of the games. I'm not trying to have a go at you, I just that very strange statement that's unsupported. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hippo Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 10 hours ago, omariqy said: Interesting comments. Here's my take on each game so far in the league. Hull - average performance Cardiff - poor Reading - poor Norwich - v good Bristol - average Brentford - poor Boro - average Barnsley - v good Forest - average Burton - v good Bolton - average Wolves - poor Fulham - good Blues - average Preston - v good Sheff Wed - poor QPR - v good Sunderland - average Ipswich - good Leeds - average Millwall - poor Derby - poor Sheff Utd - average Brentford - v poor Boro - good Bristol City - v good Sorry a bit long winded but I make that 17 games where we have been average/poor/very poor and 9 games where we have been good or very good. Don't forget last season was even worse. I think when people say the football has been hard to watch under Bruce have a good case. We are doing fairly well in the league and for the majority of the season it has been turgid stuff. Only Bristol, QPR, Preston, Barnsley, Burton and Norwich stand out for me. Conversley - since we have been relegated how many away teams have come to VP and put in a good performance ? - I can only think of wolves last season. I don't think there are many teams in the championship playing scintillating football week in - week out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael118 Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 (edited) 40 minutes ago, Villan_of_oz said: I'm pretty sure If I managed Barcelona and Pep managed Leicester, Barcelona would win over 50% of the games. I'm not trying to have a go at you, I just that very strange statement that's unsupported. I don't really see Guardiola as a manager who could have achieved the same at Leicester as what Ranieri did. Leicester's squad were no better than average and Ranieri transformed them into world beaters. Assuming you haven't got a hidden talent for being a manager you might be able to get a 50% record or more managing Barcelona against Leicester under Ranieri if the matches were one-offs. Over a full season when other factors come into play it would be a different story. Edited January 5, 2018 by Michael118 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 7 minutes ago, hippo said: Conversley - since we have been relegated how many away teams have come to VP and put in a good performance ? - I can only think of wolves last season. I don't think there are many teams in the championship playing scintillating football week in - week out. No one is that consistent apart from Wolves but really we should be up there with Wolves given the squad. I must say it is nice to have a good record at home when compared to previous years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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